Repeated Case of Zero NCAP Crash Test Rating of Indian Cars

[Akash1886]

Buddies,

I am sharing here the fact sheets of Tata Zest (0 star and 4 star) from Global NCAP. I would request for a sensible clarification from you all as to how can it be possible that both in Zero & 4 star rating the structure can be said to be unstable? If a car is getting 4 star rating with increased weight and safety features yet the structure is unstable?? and even in Zero Star one, the damage as seen in video doesn't enter the cabin or shatter windscreen badly and the pillars remain in place then on what basis was the structure deemed as unstable on both occasions? How is it possible that (as per Global NCAP), a car with unstable structure still gets 4 stars? If the structure is so poor as per Global NCAP then why did they award 4 stars?

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Credit: Global NCAP #SaferCarsForIndia crash test results

I request you humbly not to start any negative discussion.

Regards

Akash

 

[InsaneTurbo]

Actually the crash tests bodies are in favour of active safety devices and not that keen about body structure it seems !
The Fiat Punto tested had a much stable structure than many 3 star awarded cars .
More observations are to made on these testing bodies and rules before coming into a conclusion as most of the results we have for comparison are from different testing bodies, type of regulations and country of make.

FCA is solely responsible for such an inferior test score for Fiat Punto with inferior basic safety features , I wish they would make the car reassesed by the EuroNcap and score the maximum possible score for atleast those who had trusted them .

 

[vijay_968]

Friends, in my quick study, I found that NCAP uses at least three (could be more) basic wordings while certifying crash worthiness of Cars. I got these below stuff from NCAP site.

(A)
0 Star - SWIFT (No Airbags) / Yr of Publication 2014 : (Original) AND
0 Star - HYUNDAI I10 (No AirbagsS) / Yr of Publication 2014 : (Original) AND
0 Star Scorpio (No Airbags) / Yr of Publication 2016 (Original)
3 Stars - RENAULT DUSTER (Driver Airbag) / Yr of Publication 2017 : (Original)
"The bodyshell was rated as unstable. The bodyshell was not capable of withstanding and any further loading".

(B)
0 Star - VOLKWAGEN POLO (NO AIRBAGS) / Yr of Publication 2014 : (Original) The bodyshell was rated as stable and it can withstanding further loading which is a critical baseline to add airbags. PS: Note the word withstanding ;-)(C)
Four Stars - Toyota Etios (2 Airbags) / Yr of Publication 2016 : (Original) The structure was able to withstand further loadings.

What I infer from (B) is that, even if a Car got zero Star, IF the bodyshell was found to be stable, NCAP might allow the OEM to add Airbags to "another piece of the same model and offer it for testing", without mandating modifications to structure. If the wordings are like in (A), the NCAP might mandate changes to the vehicle structure, for fielding car for NCAP Tests.

A quick Google Image search on NCAP's reference to "body shell of a car" convinced me that it is a car's "sheet metal".

Whereas, a Google image search on "chassis design", as referred by kkn13 in post # 149, shows up the Chassis without body shell.

Hurray... Victory for the "thicker-sheet-metal-for-better-safety Team" at TAI


@ kkn13 Take it as a gentle joke between Members. I do know that if the sheet metal is very thick, the car will get negative ratings in NCAP's test on "pedestrian head hitting the bonnet" blah blah blah...

 

[kkn13]

If Duster got 3* and Punto 0*, there is nothing one can say other than blame EuroNCAP for being too harsh.
The Puntos structure was rated stable and were able to counter further loading, so a minimum of 3* should have been its score.
Anyway FCA is not at all doing well nowadays. And not even luck seems to favor them.

Thats the 2018 Duster and 2005 Punto designs

 

[vm2011]

Why is there so much of fanboy-ism in an european model ? Do you know if the PUNTO in India is identical to the tested one?

Here is what the EURO NCAP chief has to say and is very relevant to EU buyers.

This is perhaps the strongest example of a manufacturer continuing to sell a product that is well past its best-before date, at the expense of the unsuspecting car buyer. We would urge consumers to check our website for the latest ratings and to choose cars with the most up-to-date five-star ratings, many examples of which we have seen in 2017

No point in speculating Indian cars yet. Let the discussion start once the mandatory safety tests sets in and am sure then too there will be debates, questioning the tests.

Source:

 

[1989rs500]

Why is there so much of fanboy-ism in an european model ? Do you know if the PUNTO in India is identical to the tested one?

Here is what the EURO NCAP chief has to say and is very relevant to EU buyers.



No point in speculating Indian cars yet. Let the discussion start once the mandatory safety tests sets in and am sure then too there will be debates, questioning the tests.

Source:

Its not fanboyism alone man. See the Punto used to be a 5* rated car and when it suddenly junps backwards to 0* ,its almost unbelievable,
Also European brands usually do care about safety more than mileage practicality etc, so in general European cars used to be safest
Its not saying that Japanese or Korean or American are unsafe, but in general if we take a look at Fiats, safety has been a primary reason for a lot of people to choose it, now the tables have turned, so irs left for Fiat to update the dated chassis,
All brands in theory should be affected due to this new ENCAP test but Duster which essentially hasnt changed much has scored 3*, thats a big surprise for me. The Dacia platform is old and nowhere it is mentioned it has been updated for latest safety norms..
Maybe the active safety tech inclusion in base variants might have favoured Dacia/Renault Duster

 

[vm2011]

-----

You have completely missed the target. It has nothing to do with European Vs Japanse Vs Korean Vs. American. We have drawn conclusions so and brought it thus.

FCA as a company has dwindling market share all across with only brand Jeep doing brisk business.
Safety is clearly not their priority anymore , it is just average. The 2016 Fiat TIPO is 3 star rated, its Brazil Argo has not been offered to LATIN NCAP for tests yet.



FCA'S CEO Sergio Marchionne has plans before his exit but definitely has no priority if the business of fiat cars.

 

[1989rs500]

You have completely missed the target. It has nothing to do with European Vs Japanse Vs Korean Vs. American. We have drawn conclusions so and brought it thus.

FCA as a company has dwindling market share all across with only brand Jeep doing brisk business.
Safety is clearly not their priority anymore , it is just average. The 2016 Fiat TIPO is 3 star rated, its Brazil Argo has not been offered to LATIN NCAP for tests yet.

View attachment 236360

FCA'S CEO Sergio Marchionne has plans before his exit but definitely has no priority if the business of fiat cars.

View attachment 236361

I do agree with the fact that FCA is loosing ground in global scale, but I wont agree that FCA cars are not safety checked, it is clear that the Fiat Punto tested has a chassis that dates back to 2005 and yet it held its own ground till 2016 tests, meaning its far superior to a lot of its competitors because it was able hold its own ground for past 11 years despite age, but now the rules and regulations have changed and the new rules have completely capsized the Fiat boat, they are running low on budget and its true newer Fiats like Argo,Panda, etc are not built to most modern safety standards but still a 0 star is pretty harsh on that chassis as any day its got more stronger shell than even todays some modern platforms, just because of lack of any active safety tech a car need not be punished in this level

If that was the case, Maruti brand should be banned in India for selling over 60 lakh unsafe cars in India for the past 5 years , that includes Wagon Rs, ALtos, Celerios, SWifts, Dzires, EEcos, Ertigas, just look at their portfolio, almost 70% of their best selling cars are even GNCAP 0 rated let alone ENCAP/LNCAP

My point is even though it got 0 stars the dummies colours tell a very different story, I cant find more than 3 Maruti,Hyundai,Datsun, cars sold here that has this much green portion in dummies , so it deserved at least 2 stars in my view.

 

[carcommentor]

......

My point is even though it got 0 stars the dummies colours tell a very different story, I cant find more than 3 Maruti,Hyundai,Datsun, cars sold here that has this much green portion in dummies , so it deserved at least 2 stars in my view.

I haven't gone through the report, but as per TopGear,

The Punto performs well enough to get two stars in how it protects drivers, passengers and pedestrians in an accident. It’s the lack of seatbelt warning bongs beyond the driver’s seat and no anti-crash braking tech that disqualify it from any stars in its overall rating. The organisation is particularly stringent on cars that don’t take cheap and simple safety tech seriously

If we apply this to India, every car brand will get zero star.

 

[1989rs500]

I haven't gone through the report, but as per TopGear,

If we apply this to India, every car brand will get zero star.

True but my point is more than these a stable structure even after 64 kmph impact js what us more important, that used to be the major criteria for qualifying or disqualifying cars by NCAPs, and I still believe a car with stable structure is worthy of getting a minimum star rating, thats why even Top Gear has given a soft spot in its article for Punto.
I can only imagine what Euro NCAP will say about cars sold in India if they were to test them, under 10 lakhs I feel no cars will pass

 

[kkn13]

I dont think we can put one brand over the other in India barring flagship models of certain brands wherein most of them are international spec or CKD/CBU
Else every car is pretty much compromised, it doesnt matter which one has more sheet metal or "structure" given the basic fundamentals are missing in certain brands and other brands simply plonk a few things here and there for safety

Might as well splurge and get cars that have actual evidence than assumptions
Jeep Compass is an excellent example of having your cake and eating it too
Easy on the pocket, international spec and even exported from India itself
Other notable examples include Tucson, Tiguan, Endeavour , Fortuner, Crysta , Endeavour, maybe even Ecosport and Creta to an extent

IMHO a small car in India is a recipe for disaster outside metros, a good monocoque CSUV/CUV or full fledged SUV is ideal for highway driving
Sedans will never match their safety levels except in emergency manuevers such as the infamous Moose Test which alot of SUVs such as Fortuner have most notably failed but make up for it in other ways

The main issue is old small cars like 800, Alto,Wagon R, Indica etc being driven at insane speeds or poor lane discipline on the highway
I encounter numerous youngsters who buy/borrow such cars and drive like this

 

[1989rs500]

Smart Two and Smart Four are small cars size similar to Eon which can pass all kinds of safety tests, Renault Twongo too is an example of a small car that has a safe shell as well as safety incorporated despite its size.

The cars built in India for India only are the ones that are biggest issue,

My simple reason for attacking certain brands are as follows,
If these brands can build a safe structure and import it to other nations, why not just give the sa.e to us, OK we might not need latest gadgets and features but why not a safe chassis.
India made Swift,Grand i10,Figo MK II, Brio, are prime examples.
They are made with double standards, the ones with good quality are imported to other continents and ones wil lower quality sold for India.
I particularly attacked MSIL here because MSILs bread and butter is India, if it were not us the Suzuki car market would have died , India is the only reason why Suzuki exist and yet they are the ones who show biggest disparity by selling maximum number of unsafe cars.
I highly appreciate Toyota, Volkswagen, too here. Etios and Etios Liva ,Polo, Ameo,are on bottom of sales chart when it comes to sales but just check their GNCAP report, they all have a stable chassis, thats how one must be commited to customer. You can go as low to ground as possible but in no way they play with safety.

I also appreciate Fiat as their 2005 chassis still has a stable structure which the best selling car in India dosent have.

 

[kunal Singh]

There is no point,
Maruti has made history this month by selling around 125k cars in a single month,
Out of which around 60k are unsafe death machines, even more worse,out of the 60k tin cans more than 18k cars dont evn have airbags,abs,ebd..

I think it is too bad to just generalise maruti for unsafe cars are renault doing any better with dusters small airbags or the capture/Kapture fiasco cheating the Indian buyers or datsun selling the redi go and praising it's spacious nature saying nothing about it's safety or Mahindra selling the aging bolero or scorpio which too are having unstable body shell atleast maruti is giving airbags and ABS even on humble on alto 800 and as far as concerns for light weight go you have latest proof in form of the punto and swift which were test at Euro NCAP where punto scored a zero and swift fared very well despite being about 200Kgs lighter and you really don't want to come to conclusion by judging from accident pics where there are hit and misses in the same car it's just luck.
So please just don't make maruti gulity for unsafe cars when almost every other car on the road is the same.
I feel the government is also to be blamed with there high taxation rate they leave little margins for manufacturers to add safety tech and there safety norms seam to always come next year from 2016 but still haven't come into effect and only god knows when it will be implemented.

 

[1989rs500]

I think it is too bad to just generalise maruti for unsafe cars are renault doing any better with dusters small airbags or the capture/Kapture fiasco cheating the Indian buyers or datsun selling the redi go and praising it's spacious nature saying nothing about it's safety or Mahindra selling the aging bolero or scorpio which too are having unstable body shell atleast maruti is giving airbags and ABS even on humble on alto 800 and as far as concerns for light weight go you have latest proof in form of the punto and swift which were test at Euro NCAP where punto scored a zero and swift fared very well despite being about 200Kgs lighter and you really don't want to come to conclusion by judging from accident pics where there are hit and misses in the same car it's just luck.
So please just don't make maruti gulity for unsafe cars when almost every other car on the road is the same.
I feel the government is also to be blamed with there high taxation rate they leave little margins for manufacturers to add safety tech and there safety norms seam to always come next year from 2016 but still haven't come into effect and only god knows when it will be implemented.

Yes I generalized Maruti because its a brand that has over 51% market share in India and is a brand that MUST THANK ITS MENTOR ie INDIA first before giving safe cars for rest of the world

Now I still criticize a lot of others as well, I used etc to mention others like Renaults, Datsuns, Mahindras, Tatas etc, all are at fault,
While considering that Fiat the car under question here still has got a stable chassis and a safe structure

Even Ford a brand that used to have cars with safe structures has now skimped on safety and now supplemented the shell structure with 6 airbags in new Figo which I am not a fan of

The reason a lot of other brands follow this unsafe strategy is because the major players ie Maruti and Hyundai, see its a mass effect, global brands like VW,Fiat,Toyota too could have skimped on safety for their cars like Polo,Punto,Etios but they didnt,

Please read GNCAP reports of all cars made in INDIA
Global NCAP #SaferCarsForIndia crash test results
And do read the pdf, in the adult occupant safety region of the pdf they specifically tell whether the structure is stable and whether it can take further loading and under 10 lakhs I feel only Polo and Etios can do it in hatch backs segment, and I feel Punto too can take it as there is no special Indian Punto unlike what Maruti,Hyundai,Honda,Ford,etc has

 

[vijay_968]

I think it is too bad to just generalise maruti for unsafe cars ...

Vareh vah...

Let me try and make a Fun List...

• Top notch Service Providers NOT to be blamed for "dropped calls" and "low speeds" --- Ex: "See .... this happens with that 10th rated Operator also".
• Mechanic NOT to be blamed for half-cooked Service --- Ex:: Engine is meant to make Sound. WHY are you complaining of harsh sound ??? Use Cotton in your Ear
• Builder NOT to be blamed for poor quality of construction --- Ex:: So many builders' construction Qlty is bad to poor. WHY blame THIS builder ??
• Cook NOT to be blamed for lousy food --- Ex:: Taste is average in soooo many Restaurants. WHY blame THIS cook alone ?
• Parents NOT to be blamed for spoiled kid's behaviour --- Ex:: India has lots of Juvenile Homes. WHY blame THIS Kid's parents ?
• Drivers NOT to be blamed for signal jumping --- Ex:: So many jump. WHY should I not ???
• Govt Officials NOT to be blamed for Poor Administration --- Ex:: No example needed.
• Individuals NOT to be blamed for "Tax evasion and Black Money" --- Ex:: No example needed.
• Central Govt NOT to be blamed for rising Prices --- Ex:: No example needed.

A (market) Leader is expected to PULL his people OUT of the Rut; NOT to bury them DEEP, and make money out of it (and send a big chunk of it abroad).

BTW, where did I read the lines "Becoming a part of a rotten society or NOT" is an individual's choice ???