Blue Oval: The Ford Motor Company. Your Likes & Dislikes?

[Bopanna]

Ford has a history of lower than claimed Fuel Economy figures for it's cars.

Seeing many reports of Ford Ecosport 1.0 Ecoboost giving lower (typically 9-12 kmpl) FE than claimed (ARAI figure is 18.9 kmpl), one sees a pattern of Ford vehicles under-performing in real conditions. Winning engine of the year for 2 years is one thing, but delivering promised performance to end consumer is another.

1. Ford had to revise it's claimed FE figures for Ford Focus hybrid in USA after buyers sued Ford over lower than claimed FE. The blame for under-performance was partly taken by EPA, the autonomous body that specifies rules for the FE tests. EPA admitted that outdated FE testing methodology resulted in an exaggerated FE figure for Ford Focus. The methodology may have been outdated, but the tests themselves were conducted by Ford, and data submitted to EPA. So Ford cannot entirely shift the blame on EPA.

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...-economy-rating-on-c-max-hybrid-8-5-to-43-mpg

The end result was that Ford had to lower the claimed FE figure by 8.5% and send out compensation to buyers who had already bought Focus hybrid.

2. The website cartalk reported a consistent pattern of lower than expected FE figures coming out from Ford for it's mass consumer vehicles.

Having just spent a few months driving Ford's new products, I gotta tell you, I loved them all initially. But that was before I’d run through a tank of gas and found out each and every one got seriously worse fuel economy than claimed in widely placed ads quoting their EPA highway mileage ratings. There’s no denying, I felt violated.
...
Good as their cars are, they demand one accept a serious fuel economy penalty for the privilege of driving them

Auto-buyers are increasingly demanding vehicles that are environment friendly and consume lesser fuel. Low displacement, turbocharged and hybrid engines are key technologies towards delivering the promise. Ford, while innovating in these technologies, needs to keep in mind their ethical duty to report realistic FE figures that do not promise the moon to the auto-buyer.

Unrealistic claims like these, especially when they become a pattern, generate a bad word, which gets around very quickly in a world that is more and more connected. End result is that Ford will earn a bad name for the brand in the long term. Legally, Ford may be safe in legalese and disclaimers that accompany official FE figures. But brand perception is not something that follows legal procedure. Word of mouth is the only way a brand is built.

 

[1989rs500]

Ford has a history of lower than claimed Fuel Economy figures for it's cars.

Seeing many reports of Ford Ecosport 1.0 Ecoboost giving lower (typically 9-12 kmpl) FE than claimed (ARAI figure is 18.9 kmpl), one sees a pattern of Ford vehicles under-performing in real conditions. Winning engine of the year for 2 years is one thing, but delivering promised performance to end consumer is another.

1. Ford had to revise it's claimed FE figures for Ford Focus hybrid in USA after buyers sued Ford over lower than claimed FE. The blame for under-performance was partly taken by EPA, the autonomous body that specifies rules for the FE tests. EPA admitted that outdated FE testing methodology resulted in an exaggerated FE figure for Ford Focus. The methodology may have been outdated, but the tests themselves were conducted by Ford, and data submitted to EPA. So Ford cannot entirely shift the blame on EPA.

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...-economy-rating-on-c-max-hybrid-8-5-to-43-mpg

The end result was that Ford had to lower the claimed FE figure by 8.5% and send out compensation to buyers who had already bought Focus hybrid.

2. The website cartalk reported a consistent pattern of lower than expected FE figures coming out from Ford for it's mass consumer vehicles.

image



Auto-buyers are increasingly demanding vehicles that are environment friendly and consume lesser fuel. Low displacement, turbocharged and hybrid engines are key technologies towards delivering the promise. Ford, while innovating in these technologies, needs to keep in mind their ethical duty to report realistic FE figures that do not promise the moon to the auto-buyer.

Unrealistic claims like these, especially when they become a pattern, generate a bad word, which gets around very quickly in a world that is more and more connected. End result is that Ford will earn a bad name for the brand in the long term. Legally, Ford may be safe in legalese and disclaimers that accompany official FE figures. But brand perception is not something that follows legal procedure. Word of mouth is the only way a brand is built.

I believe I have posted an answer for this already in this forum somewhere before, fuel economy is tested by car manufacturers in a specific route with an EPA agent accompanying them and the driver will be mostly a Ford factory driver who knows how to drive an ecoboost and he drives the car really slow say 70-100 kmph maximum with minimum gear changes and in city as well he will have the perfect gear ratios in mind to shift so he will shift accordingly and that fuel economy will be noted and approoved, In my opinion no petrol engine whether turbo charged or not wont get a mileage of more than 13 kmpl in city and 18 highway unless we are extremely careful with the throttle and gearbox, I dont think 10-11 kmpl for a 1.2 ton SUV is bad the NA engine will get better economy than ecoboost in city because it has less torque and less power and it has TIVCT which ecoboost dosent have(When 2nd gear shift is made a sudden drop in powerband will be experienced,Effect of TiVct), ecoboost is Direct injection+turbo charging DI is very good to increase burning efficiency so it will help a lot to produce instant power and that helps ecoboosts Torque curve be a plateau, and to keep the torque curve on 170 NM height the turbo charging helps big time and also it helps reduce emissions quite a lot, but fuel economy wont increase because the weight of the car is a big factor even in Focus ,Fusion(heaviest D segment FWD car),but check Explorer, its got a 3.5l v6 ecoboost so its got power to back the weight so the combined mpg is closer to estimate, about Focus and Fusion in UK Focus is getting around 11-12 kmpl in English traffic and 14-16 kmpl in highway driving, this is from a real source and I think Focus is even more aerodynamic than Ecosport but its weight is almost same as Ecosport about 1290 kg,but the real star is Fiesta hatch with ecoboost just weighs 1146 kg and with 125 ps it zooms to 100 kmph under 10s and still gives economy of 12+ kmpl in city and 15+ easily on highway even if pushed hard.

The ugly thing Ford do is they advertise the fuel economy as a you have told ECO BOASTING, One of my friend has Skoda Laura 1.8 TSI and the mileage he gets is 7-8 kmpl in city and 12-14 highway, but Skoda didnt advertise anything about economy so he is happy with it and the Power it provides is something only 25+ lakh cars can have so he is very satisfied, FORD being a drivers car brand advertising fuel economy is the most foolish thing I have ever seen,If they advertise for diesel its OK but for petrol POWER,refinement,smoothness,less maintenance cost,less initial investment is what matters, economy is something that petrol cars have an aversion to and if we want economy we must drive like we are grandpas and grandmas

 

[Bopanna]

The C-Max hybrid, for which Ford fudged the FE numbers was not touted as a drivers' car; not by the widest stretch of imagination. It was a hybrid family car specifically advertized as a fuel saver. Nor is it a pure petrol car - it is a hybrid.

Ford's action is a akin to selling a hybrid (solar+LPG) pressure cooker claiming it saves LPG fuel - but reality turns out that it wastes LPG. You cannot salvage the situation by saying this is a chef's pressure cooker, and then blame LPG as an inefficient cooking medium.

There is nothing foolish about Ford's marketing tactic of fudging C-MAX FE numbers. It is old-fashined guile and loose ethics.

I cannot believe a naivete which assigns generalized characteristics to a brand (like all Ford is a drivers' car). Even Mullally will spill his coffee if anyone claims C-Max was always meant to be driver's car.

So much has Ford been jolted by the C-Max affair, that it is yet to release official FE numbers for 2014 Fiesta with 1.0L Ecoboost in USA! This is the source of this fact:

What's the Ford Fiesta's gas mileage with a three-cylinder EcoBoost engine? - chicagotribune.com

Ford is ****-scared to give exaggerated FE numbers like (41 MPG or 17-18 kmpl) in USA. After the C-Max affair, the strict consumer laws of USA would surely catch any hanky-panky there. Fun would be if in USA, Ford releases a realistic FE figure for the lighter Fiesta which is lesser than the heavier Ecosport with same engine in India!

The lax consumer scenario In India allows Ford to carry some unethical business practices to India where it has claimed FE of 18.9 kmpl for Ecoboost 1.0. As the early adopters are finding out, this claim again fails to meet reality.

 

[1989rs500]

The C-Max hybrid, for which Ford fudged the FE numbers was not touted as a drivers' car; not by the widest stretch of imagination. It was a hybrid family car specifically advertized as a fuel saver. Nor is it a pure petrol car - it is a hybrid.

Ford's action is a akin to selling a hybrid (solar+LPG) pressure cooker claiming it saves LPG fuel - but reality turns out that it wastes LPG. You cannot salvage the situation by saying this is a chef's pressure cooker, and then blame LPG as an inefficient cooking medium.

There is nothing foolish about Ford's marketing tactic of fudging C-MAX FE numbers. It is old-fashined guile and loose ethics.

I cannot believe a naivete which assigns generalized characteristics to a brand (like all Ford is a drivers' car). Even Mullally will spill his coffee if anyone claims C-Max was always meant to be driver's car.

So much has Ford been jolted by the C-Max affair, that it is yet to release official FE numbers for 2014 Fiesta with 1.0L Ecoboost in USA! This is the source of this fact:

What's the Ford Fiesta's gas mileage with a three-cylinder EcoBoost engine? - chicagotribune.com

Ford is ****-scared to give exaggerated FE numbers like (41 MPG or 17-18 kmpl) in USA. After the C-Max affair, the strict consumer laws of USA would surely catch any hanky-panky there. Fun would be if in USA, Ford releases a realistic FE figure for the lighter Fiesta which is lesser than the heavier Ecosport with same engine in India!

The lax consumer scenario In India allows Ford to carry some unethical business practices to India where it has claimed FE of 18.9 kmpl for Ecoboost 1.0. As the early adopters are finding out, this claim again fails to meet reality.

C-Max is based on Ford Focus underpinnings and platform is same that means it will be the best handling Hybrid till date,sure it wont handle like a hatch or sedan but in Hybrid MPV space it is definitely the class leader
The Ecosport in India has already achieved 19.6 kmpl for some users in some other forums by driving at around 70 kmph in highway so I dont think the claim is false but its very difficult to achieve, same goes for Hybrids where one can reach highway speeds and then somehow manage to wake the electric motor to attain the FE figures almost to the claimed numbers but its a pain to drive like that.
In India the Fiesta ecoboost might make a round breaking 20 kmpl mileage claim and if some one falls for it, its still their fault, we might achieve that number in highway drive with just 60-70 kmph on speedo but again for what, Petrols are not for mileage, diesels are for mileage, small petrol cars might bring mileage say cars with kerb weight below 1.2 ton

 

[Bopanna]

So I found out the "methodology" behind Ford's exaggerated claims for C-Max hybrid. Ford just took Fusion Hybrid's mpg numbers and declared it for C-Max !

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...economy-rating-on-c-max-hybrid-8.5%-to-43-mpg

Ford officials said today the company used mpg tests on the Fusion hybrid sedan to generate the fuel economy label for the C-Max. It was allowed under EPA rules but Ford said it plans to test C-Max separately going forward.

Ford used the 47-mpg number as the centerpiece of its C-Max advertising. Beginning in October, it aired a series of playful animated ads that pitted the C-Max against the rival Toyota Prius V.

Gentlemen, there was no EPA agent and no Ford driver driving the C-Max when the exaggerated FE claim was made. Ford did a good old copy-paste job to fool it's customers.

What can one say for the ethical standards of a company that takes FE numbers from one vehicle and blatantly pulls wool over consumers' eyes by using that FE number for another vehicle in it's stable.

I'd like real pointers to someone having achieved 19kmpl with Ecosport 1.0L Ecoboost ? Just saying "other forums" is just hand-waving. Please give a link and preferably a snap of the tripmeter showing these figures.

 

[1989rs500]

So I found out the "methodology" behind Ford's exaggerated claims for C-Max hybrid. Ford just took Fusion Hybrid's mpg numbers and declared it for C-Max !

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...economy-rating-on-c-max-hybrid-8.5%-to-43-mpg



Gentlemen, there was no EPA agent and no Ford driver driving the C-Max when the exaggerated FE claim was made. Ford did a good old copy-paste job to fool it's customers.

What can one say for the ethical standards of a company that takes FE numbers from one vehicle and blatantly pulls wool over consumers' eyes by using that FE number for another vehicle in it's stable.

I'd like real pointers to someone having achieved 19kmpl with Ecosport 1.0L Ecoboost ? Just saying "other forums" is just hand-waving. Please give a link and preferably a snap of the tripmeter showing these figures.

Yup you are right, even though I am a faboy I hate some of their moves and procedures, like the C-Max Hybrid mpg issue,and India is worlds 3rd biggest car market after China and USA and still why no premium cars in India and quality of Ford cars in India is a downgrade from some markets like ESP and Traction control not available for diesel and ecoboost Ecosports,
Also the kind of attitude they are taking towards greedy dealers who bully Ecosport bookies and service costs of petrol cars are high compared to competition.
Ford poses challenge to Toyota with high market value - Taipei Times
Funny in India the value is going down day by day

Hope this one comes to India to calm down the atmosphere here
2014 Ford Fiesta - Drive Time Review with Steve Hammes - YouTube

 

[nishant5858]

My Figo too returns only 10kmpl. But apart from that I love it in every other aspect. Every time I give it for service they'll take too long to service it.

 

[Bopanna]

Fiesta looks much better in the hatch avatar. Wish Ford India launched the hatch - but given the hatch is costlier than the sedan, it looks extremely unlikely.

 

[1989rs500]

Fiesta looks much better in the hatch avatar. Wish Ford India launched the hatch - but given the hatch is costlier than the sedan, it looks extremely unlikely.

I think Ford is the only brand that has hatch being more costly than sedan and If Ford launches hatch with ecoboost and all these tech they can get the under 4m excise benefit and can price it very competitively, still they are not doing it,the cars like i20,fabia,Polo could have got a real competition with Fiesta hatch
The new Skoda Fabia 2014 is interesting me a lot as it might come with 1.2 TSI and manual so it might be in my garage if Ford dosent release Fiesta sedan or hatch with ecoboost here in India

 

[Bopanna]

The Fiesta hatch in US is 4.06m long. I believe they can squeeze it below 4m for India. Another area of cost cutting is rear reinforcements - in US market, the ability to withstand a rear collision is a legal requirement for which, Ford has put in rear reinforcements for Fiesta hatch which makes it more expensive than the sedan. They don't need that for India.

But the thing is - even if they do all possible cost cutting, it would still be a premium hatch - definitely more expensive than the 1.2L Polo but less than Polo GT (TSI/TDI). As far as premium hatches go, after the lesson of Honda Jazz in Indian market, they will find it hard to make a business case to launch the Fiesta as a premium hatch in India.

I really hope they do - I wish I could wait that long - I'd kill to get to drive that red Fiesta hatch.

 

[1989rs500]

The Fiesta hatch in US is 4.06m long. I believe they can squeeze it below 4m for India. Another area of cost cutting is rear reinforcements - in US market, the ability to withstand a rear collision is a legal requirement for which, Ford has put in rear reinforcements for Fiesta hatch which makes it more expensive than the sedan. They don't need that for India.

But the thing is - even if they do all possible cost cutting, it would still be a premium hatch - definitely more expensive than the 1.2L Polo but less than Polo GT (TSI/TDI). As far as premium hatches go, after the lesson of Honda Jazz in Indian market, they will find it hard to make a business case to launch the Fiesta as a premium hatch in India.

I really hope they do - I wish I could wait that long - I'd kill to get to drive that red Fiesta hatch.

The rear protection is standard in Fords in US and Europe in Asia they do it by using more sacrifice panels and less metal,The reason why I thin Fiesta hatch wont work in India is same as what you have told the Jazz story, so it wont make to India sure. The Fiesta has less legroom considering new i20 and even Fabia just 1-2 mm shy of VW Polo so it wont work in India with its space credentials too,
What I am hoping is with extensive localisation of Ecosport the new 1.5 TDCi will get less excise and the 1.5 TiVCT is really cheap with Ecosport so it might start at around 7.5 ex showroom for 1.5 TIVCT and might extent upto 9.5l(manual) 10.5l for AT, but the ecoboost engine should get even more benefits and should be 50k more than 1.5 TIVCT, so thats the obvious and better choice as it wont be expensive as diesel, the diesel is expected to start from 8.8 lakh to 10.8lakh ex showroom and it will be costliest diesel car crossing 12.5 lakh onroad and for that money the full option titanium is not going to work here but the mid variant might bring some buyers
Anyway I hope the the new Fiesta dosnt get useless features like cruise control etc like on the 2012 Fiesta that shot up its price unnecessarily high, even if the Fiesta is priced extremely well it wont make much difference to Verna and Vento but the rush for Ecosport will have some decrements and if it comes with the quality as in US and Europe the downtrodden image that it has as of now might have an up lift at least temporarily.

 

[rahulgupta3101]

i think its better to be safe with ford classic..

i know both are in a different segments. the topend model in classic (titanium dsl) gives a bit of options compared with fiesta style dsl.

what do u say abt it

Hi,

I would say the Fiesta classic, although a very accomplished product, is towards the end of it's life cycle.If you are looking to buy one, I would say wait for the updated one to arrive here, which should be late 2014/early 2015.

I believe I have posted an answer for this already in this forum somewhere before, fuel economy is tested by car manufacturers in a specific route with an EPA agent accompanying them and the driver will be mostly a Ford factory driver who knows how to drive an ecoboost and he drives the car really slow say 70-100 kmph maximum with minimum gear changes and in city as well he will have the perfect gear ratios in mind to shift so he will shift accordingly and that fuel economy will be noted and approoved, In my opinion no petrol engine whether turbo charged or not wont get a mileage of more than 13 kmpl in city and 18 highway unless we are extremely careful with the throttle and gearbox, I dont think 10-11 kmpl for a 1.2 ton SUV is bad the NA engine will get better economy than ecoboost in city because it has less torque and less power and it has TIVCT which ecoboost dosent have(When 2nd gear shift is made a sudden drop in powerband will be experienced,Effect of TiVct), ecoboost is Direct injection+turbo charging DI is very good to increase burning efficiency so it will help a lot to produce instant power and that helps ecoboosts Torque curve be a plateau, and to keep the torque curve on 170 NM height the turbo charging helps big time and also it helps reduce emissions quite a lot, but fuel economy wont increase

Hey 1989,

Contrary to what you said, Ecoboost has to have better FE in city as against TiVct. The simple fact behind it is the engine will be spinning most of the time without turbo kicking in, thus making it a simple 1.0L 3 cylinder motor consuming fuel as a 1L should.

On the highway, the situation will be like the engine will be turning most of the time in the turbo rev range, and hence resulting in greater consumption of fuel.

TiVct can better the ecoboost numbers on the highway, that too, with much effort.

C-Max is based on Ford Focus underpinnings and platform is same that means it will be the best handling Hybrid till date,sure it wont handle like a hatch or sedan but in Hybrid MPV space it is definitely the class leader
The Ecosport in India has already achieved 19.6 kmpl for some users in some other forums by driving at around 70 kmph in highway........

I agree with you on this and those FE numbers are achievable. After all the engine is displacing a puny 1L. Our little Alto's have a more displacement version available on sale.

What can one say for the ethical standards of a company that takes FE numbers from one vehicle and blatantly pulls wool over consumers' eyes by using that FE number for another vehicle in it's stable.

I'd like real pointers to someone having achieved 19kmpl with Ecosport 1.0L Ecoboost ? Just saying "other forums" is just hand-waving. Please give a link and preferably a snap of the tripmeter showing these figures.

This is a practice followed by many,if not all. You give me one company whose gasoline engined cars achieves the claimed FE by the company.

We had an ikon 1.6L in the family and we used to get close to 16kmpl on highway runs( with careful driving of course).So, when a 1.6L powerful in-line 4 can manage those numbers, there is little room for doubt that a 1L more advanced motor can't.

 

[msjawahar]

Hi,

I would say the Fiesta classic, although a very accomplished product, is towards the end of it's life cycle.If you are looking to buy one, I would say wait for the updated one to arrive here, which should be late 2014/early 2015.

even i read it some forums that it will be launched only by the mid of 2014. one year is bit a long time so i got a new fiesta stile diesel variant. i got it on 31st oct with a huge discount. im enjoying the ride now.

 

[rahulgupta3101]

even i read it some forums that it will be launched only by the mid of 2014. one year is bit a long time so i got a new fiesta stile diesel variant. i got it on 31st oct with a huge discount. im enjoying the ride now.

Ohh, Congratulations man on the latest acquisition!!I would love to see the pics of the beauty!

Please quantify the "huge discount"!!

 

[msjawahar]

Ohh, Congratulations man on the latest acquisition!!I would love to see the pics of the beauty!

Please quantify the "huge discount"!!

for the Ford Fiesta Stile Diesel I got a discount of 1.5 Lakhs and another rs. 12000 as loyalty bonus. so the OTR price is 9.35. since this deal is a perfect i cant able to leave it. and also test droved the fiesta many number of times it really satisfied my needs and i selected it. i will create a thread for my new beauty as soon as possible.