Mineral or Synthetic Oil?

[srinivas_gs]

Anyways its a good practice on not to accept anything without getting any stats for it. But similarly you should also don't reject anything without getting any proof for it

My car, my money - I need to be doubly sure though. I had already had the experience with semi synth in my two wheeler few years back resulting in the two wheeler being sold for a scrap. The engine almost died. After that I just go by what manual says. Our Indian driving conditions are not racing/extreme conditions where only outside oils will do 'the better' job. I am only trying to save your money. Its upto you to decide and act to save your money or not.

You are right its not your job to convince others, but definitely its your duty to provide enough details to support your statements you have said isn't it? or else you must agree your statement dont holds any value.

I am only saying 'Stick to manual'. I am not clear what supporting evidence you need for this statement. Am I overstating anything for my statement to/not to hold value?

Do you believe its safe to ride the vehicle at its peak power rpm with OEM oil?

I am not sure what you meant by safe here? Please read one of my earlier statement : OEM oils are fit for car use perfectly provided the car is used as per conditions in warranty. Now you can decide the purpose of racing the engine to its peak power. Please read the manual first on engine usage for warranty coverage.

Please note that it is the driving conditions and vehicle purpose on day to day normal/average usage that determine which oil to be used to protect your engine. Manuals go by that only. It should not be the other way round. This will only result in yourself spending money unnecessarily. If required, you may write to manufacturer on your point to race the engine to redline to check if OEM oil will be useful.

 

[Kichu]

My car, my money - I need to be doubly sure though. I had already had the experience with semi synth in my two wheeler few years back resulting in the two wheeler being sold for a scrap. The engine almost died. After that I just go by what manual says. Our Indian driving conditions are not racing/extreme conditions where only outside oils will do 'the better' job. I am only trying to save your money. Its upto you to decide and act to save your money or not.

Pls note that it is the driving conditions and vehicle purpose on day to day normal/average usage that determine which oil to be used to protect your engine. Manuals go by that only. It should not be the other way round. This will only result in yourself spending money unnecessarily. If required, you may write to manufacturer on your point to race the engine to redline to check if OEM oil will be useful

Oh My God,

Srinivas Why are you keep on saying about the normal driving condition with OEM oil?? Did I anywhere said OEM is bad for normal driving condition.?
Quoting my own words below, I humbly request you to read it again.

Hi Srinivas,
Here the reason is not because OEM oils are bad.
OEM oils are not going to harm unless you dont abuse your engine or you change the oil regularly. Yes in this case OEM oils are good.

These are the very first lines that I have replied to YOUR query on OEM vs Outside oil. Please dont blame/question me about the normal driving conditions with the OEM oils anymore because I didn't say anything wrong for it.

I am only saying 'Stick to manual'. I am not clear what supporting evidence you need for this statement. Am I overstating anything for my statement to/not to hold value?

Stick to Manual for normal usage. NO DOUBT IN IT(Repeating once again)
What about riding around engine's peak rpms?(No need to be the tacho needle at redline) YOU have stated with SUV as an example. If the manufacture made the car with those functionalists then it will work safe.
I dont believe an average 1L 3 pot engine can be safe at 5k rpm with the OEM oil and with manufacturer recommended change interval even though the manufacture claims its peak power at 6.2k rpm. This is the only thing I'm questioning.

Anyways I'm not sure OEM can do that, thats why I'm using outside oils

I am not sure what you meant by safe here? Pls. read one of my earlier statement : OEM oils are fit for car use perfectly provided the car is used as per conditions in warranty. Now you can decide the purpose of racing the engine to its peak power. Pls. read the manual first on engine usage for warranty coverage.

In your previous post you said its safe to ride the vehicle with the fucntionalities made for the vehicle by the manufacturer isn't? Its not me, its the manufacturer who claims the peak power and torque of the engine. So according to you riding in those rpms with OEM oil is safe or not, thats only what I have asked.
Instead I dont have any thing against riding OEM oil for normal driving conditions.

Why I opted 5w-30 ESP MOBIL1 FULLY SYNTHETIC over OEM oil.
*Smoother engine.
*Revvs up much much quicker.
*My rev range use to be around 2-4k rpm and rarely goes upto 5k when the situation calls for it. So I dont need to worry that my engine oil will fail to lubricate after some thousands of kilometers.
*Better oil change interval of 9k to 12k kms or 1 to 1.5 years. So I dont need to visit service centers for the frequent oil change services. Less frequent oil change will also helps in reducing small amount of environment pollution.


Now about the Cost.
Since the engine can rev much easily it helps in reduced fuel consumption because of the better lubrication and better flow of oil than those average OEM oil.
Here I'm not claiming that it will helps in gaining additional 2-3kms, but obviously it will give you an extra 200-300meter per kilometer. which helps in saving around 8paisa per km which will results in Rs.800 per 10,000kms.

If I'm using OEM with my same driving conditions, I may need to change my oil in between 5-6k kms.. So when considering the cost for two OEM oil changes and the fuel savings from good synthetic oil will only results in an addition of Rs.1000 pr 10k kms. So Its ok for me.


Finally,
WE call ourself as car enthusiast isn't it? If we are sticking to the car manual and wont try to do anything better than the manufacturer recommendation and also drives perfectly normal then we are not different from those ordinary people who owns a dream car and loves it so much. Because there will be only a very few people who dont care about their vehicles, rest everybody loves their cars so so much.

 

[Prads]

Just found an interesting video & thought of sharing it here
Seems synthetic oils just promotes longer oil change intervals & nothing much.

But here in India they cost 4 times the prices over a decent mineral oil.
According to the video unless its recommended by OEM it does not make sense to go Synthetic. The person behind the video seems pretty legit too(personal opinion) .
Regular Oil vs Synthetic Oil -EricTheCarGuy - YouTube

 

[srinivas_gs]

Just found an interesting video & thought of sharing it here
Seems synthetic oils just promotes longer oil change intervals & nothing much.

But here in India they cost 4 times the prices over a decent mineral oil.
According to the video unless its recommended by OEM it does not make sense to go Synthetic. The person behind the video seems pretty legit too(personal opinion).

Pradhan, thanks for this nice video. This only vindicates my stand. It's always better to stick to OEM unless one wants to spend more money on synthetic which is costlier . Importantly, having sound driving habits and adapting best practices during driving will always helps to save money on fuel and on oils. These comes only through experience and is also based on ourselves understanding our car better on its needs in order for it to serve us better.

 

[Prads]

Pradhan, thanks for this nice video. This only vindicates my stand. It's always better to stick to OEM unless one wants to spend more money on synthetic which is costlier . Importantly, having sound driving habits and adapting best practices during driving will always helps to save money on fuel and on oils. These comes only through experience and is also based on ourselves understanding our car better on its needs in order for it to serve us better.

Well i noticed a fiery debate happening on this thread,now to be frank we as individuals find it difficult to look into the real benefits of these oils or in other words its difficult to test them individual & reach a conclusion . But in the video the person mention about oil leaks cos of more clearance in some engines.But i dont think it would hurt our engines & will help in lubrication, but if it losses oil then it will need a top up sooner or later(yes but there is always an unsettled debate & no problem with an enthusiast wanting to go for it only the cost factor seems like a pinch).
I use to be into superbikes(thanks to alot of friends) some years ago & we had to warm up the engine strictly until you start moving(there is a light which indicates its warm & safe),i believe this is cos these engines have less clearance or a tight fit,such engines demand Synthetic am sure,but one friend who had a Hayabusa(the current type) would go for semi synthetic as the engine behaved better & most of all helped in engine breaking ,i think he used a Castrol oil.

After going through some videos i realized all the advantages they show in Mineral vs Synthetic is where they show how it behaves in cold weather,come on we dont have -40 degrees here. i think 0 degrees is lowest our engines will see.Where according to what i read or saw was Syn has a capability to stick when engine reves high & slows down immediately, the(common oil) thin oil film wears off for some moments during such a phase,so it may depend on how the engine is abused or used i guess,makes more sense on a 18,000 rpm superbike no doubt.

I was a bit hesitant to comment here cos of the heated debate happening but i knew a man who would work for Petronas & if i remember right he was into marine engines. I would bump into him once in a while & i realized oil business is pretty shady as all these brand seem like rivals but on the inside they have silent business deals with eachother.

 

[Kichu]

I was a bit hesitant to comment here cos of the heated debate happening but i knew a man who would work for Petronas & if i remember right he was into marine engines. I would bump into him once in a while & i realized oil business is pretty shady as all these brand seem like rivals but on the inside they have silent business deals with eachother.

Hi Prads.,

Extremely sorry to you and every thread readers for being a part in making it worse
I believe no where I said OEM oils are bad for standard driving conditions.

Regards.,
Kiran.

 

[Prads]

Hi Prads.,

Extremely sorry to you and every thread readers for being a part in making it worse
I believe no where I said OEM oils are bad for standard driving conditions.

Regards.,
Kiran.

I agree that as an enthusiast if person wishes ,one can go for a Synthetic oil (as you will notice i have mentioned before),i actually went through alot of videos,etc & realized oil companies themselves dont give any strong suggestions about oil change intervals & ask to stick to recommended company intervals. End of the day its only ones wish on what they want.
I remember a trader who would sell a raw material(for water proofing) which was 35 rupees at 80 rupees at another location & lots of people would buy it,reason was they automatically believed it was of superior quality or better.(Am not suggesting anything against Syn oils),I feel this thread should tell us what we are paying our money for.

Nah! I was hesitant to comment cos when things get exciting(in this case a debate) other members comments get overlooked. To give an honest example i had commented some months ago on another thread & there was this assuming fake profile of a pretty girl which commented after me with a question & immediately some members( gullible heroes) came to the rescue overlooking a genuine query/comment by me .
So i was just waiting for things to slow down. You should not feel bad ,lets just keep it constructive & educational.

 

[Kichu]

Ya right,

According to me why Oil manufacturer not clamming/recommending their oil's change interval why because, each engines are different.
*Main difference that we need to consider is its moving parts clearance. Newer engine have smaller clearance.(that is the reason why newer car are recommended with lower cold viscous engine oil, it should have good flow velocity and this flow characteristics should last upto the the vehicle manufacturer recommended oil change interval)
*Presence/absence of Oil Catch Can. Engine oil can loose its lubricating ability far quickly in the absence of it.
*Engine's operating rpm. Each engine will have different operating rpm.
*Higher the Compression ratio, higher the chance for the charge(air fuel mixture) to slips through the piston rings to the engine oil.

Since all these are engine specific and since oil manufacture don't have experience in experimenting all those engines, oil manufacturers must have decided to let the users to go ahead with vehicle manufacturer recommendation.(Just my personal opinion)

 

[Prads]

^
Yes the points the mentioned are always there to consider,but i am aware of the lower viscous being preferred for modern engines,but even basic 5W oils seem to hold that viscosity until 0 degrees.(any lower would prefer syn or blend for sure)
Yes i know many friction less designs have come to place with engines & gearboxs(some Dsg tech are crazy)
I remember reading somewhere about 0w-20 being used on some Honda's(i hope am not imagining this),but here in Indian conditions we have our engines facing 40 Degree heat waves & i feel we need to check the manual for the proper rating oil,cos if you see the car manuals,the oil grade changes depending on the temp(climate) your car lives in.(i dont think its strict for diesels but petrols they change).

- One thing i saw among synthetic oil manufacturer(with proper record) even in videos or anywhere where they praise their products is they never say their Syn oil last longer than the avg mineral oil.
I mean thats the most common high lighted part (for example your regular oil change at 10,000,syn oils in same can last you 15,000 km is what most say).

-The conclusion i have reached is the ageing of the syn oil is very slow in comparison to a mineral oil.Meaning Syn oil would most probably be fine even spending two years in the car as long as its driven under the stated change interval. Where as mineral oil is vulnerable to oxidization & needs to be changed at the one year mark despite kms driven.
Also i hear that Syn appears to look fine even though the condition of the oil is not great,leading many car owners to believe the oil can still continue for many more kms cos they look for signs of ageing similar to mineral oils.

-But many car companies are going the recommended Syn oil route for one reason & that is cos of increased blend of ethanol(alcohol) in our fuels.
OT - There is a bad side effect to this method of adding ethanol to fuel & that is deterioration of fuel over time. Fuel kept idle for 6 months i hear are good as water in some cases.National oil import mite go down but fuel ages very fast(am very sure many are not aware of this).

-Another thing i wanted was to go for Syn gearbox oil for my Swift which uses mineral,am sorry if this is a bit OT but still oils in some cases.
So when i look into it,it was recommended i do not, cos the gearbox would probably do well with the Syn oil but the seals & other material parts can degrade faster as a result,Since the gearbox was not designed to handle a Synthetic oil.
But one thing i have noticed is gearbox oil change between regular(guessing mineral) & Synthetic gearbox oil is huge.
Gearbox(regular) oil change of Swift is every 20,000 km
Gearbox(synthetic)oil change of "i20" is every 60,000 km (except automatic which uses mineral)
But yes the moral of the story in this case(gearbox) is it seems a bad idea to go synthetic where mineral was recommended.

 

[Kichu]

THe reason for later engines to use lower viscous oils why because newer engine clearances between the moving parts are very very less comparing to the older engines. So they need lighter oils to slip through it as fast as possible. Since the clearance of older engines are higher, they are also tend to consume more engine oil even though it is higher is viscosity grade. But newer engines with even more lighter oil tend to consume only very little amount of oil. This is what I got to know when searching answers for the same.

Everybody speak about the selection of the engine oil grade only with respect to the climatic condition of that region to where we are going to use that vehicle. IMO that concept it really wrong.
Years back we had 20w-40 or 20w-50 grade engine oils in most of our engines, which was recommended by the manufacturer in those times.
But today most of the manufacturer started recommending 5w-30 for the same region for their newer engines, isn't it?.
We know how much temperature has raised in our region during the past 20 years. But still the grade of oil is lowered instead of increasing. So the point is engine oil viscosity recommended to an engine is not completely proportional to the region's climatic condition. There are also other things which matters for the selection of perfect grade of engine oil for a particular engine.

Do you remember in which region this 0w-20 grade oil used in that honda vehicle?
Asking you why because, recently I came to know 0w-20 is started using in newer Kseries engnes from my MASS, for validating it I wrote a letter to MARUTI asking about it and their reply was positive. I even made a call to the MARUTI AREA SERVICE MANAGER and made double sure with him about the usage of 0W-20. When I presented these things including the contact details of that MARUTI SM, the feedback I got from our TIA forum is really pathetic.

Ya when I was looking for synthetic oil for the gear box, about 99% the feedback that I got from the enthus/experts are they do give only a very less difference in smoothness, so it better to invest that money for the better synth oil for the engine.

 

[tjxc32m]

Damn this is really too much information and input, as my day approaches ( i will driving 650 to kerala from Bangalore in the mid of this month ) i have to get my car serviced with the oil change due. Still not decided which to go for Mobil Delvac is what i would like to go for but getting a hand on it is hard. Next checked castrol for a full Synthetic oil, but i am not getting one right for the car. then there is shell helix ultra. (i guess will end up with shell, any clue would it be available on shell petrol bunks). Anyone with the idea on shell rimula r4.

 

[tjxc32m]

Further For my information. My manual say Engine oil (Swift Diesel) SF 15W40, API -CG 4 or above. As per API certification "SF" is obsolete now. "CG4" also is obsolete. the current one shows as CJ. So is it that i can use any of the grade oil between CG and CJ ?

Source Link API Organisation:
http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/motor_oil_guide_2010_120210.pdf

 

[Kichu]

Damn this is really too much information and input, as my day approaches ( i will driving 650 to kerala from Bangalore in the mid of this month ) i have to get my car serviced with the oil change due. Still not decided which to go for Mobil Delvac is what i would like to go for but getting a hand on it is hard. Next checked castrol for a full Synthetic oil, but i am not getting one right for the car. then there is shell helix ultra. (i guess will end up with shell, any clue would it be available on shell petrol bunks). Anyone with the idea on shell rimula r4.

Hi tjxc,

Two years back Maruti said, Swift Diesel costumers starting from some particular VIN number(I dont remember the number) should use 5W instead of 15w. It will be good if you can confirm the engine oil grade required for your Swift Diesel from the MARUTI itself, since most of the TAI members are not aware about it..

Ya, I heard good feedback about shell helix ultra.

 

[srinivas_gs]

Anyone with the idea on shell rimula r4.

Shell Rimula r4 is not for cars but for heavy duty engines likes trucks etc

 

[tjxc32m]

Hey Kichu thanks a ton. i just dug out the circular from net the and have attached the same here. So that other can also use it as reference. Its starts from VIN : MA3FHEB1S00179480. So if assume "179480" from the cut off VIN, mine comes way after "MA3KEB1S00660XXX". So i can pot for 5W40. !!