High End Air Filters - Are They Really Worth It?

[superchargers]

Lot of good discussion on air filters and intake design. I just wanted to comment on a few things:
1) The most restrictive location along the air intake is what limits the flow. Sometimes this happens to be the air filter and sometimes it is downstream where the manufacturer had to bend the pipe due to packaging constraints. Hence the reason some vehicles see an increase in power while others dont see any change.
2) ECU modification is completely optional or in other words is independent of the air filter. There are mass air flow sensors to detect changes in air flow. Even if the restriction is eliminated (no air filter) the existing ECU is programmed to compensate for air flow changes. Unless the air flow changes drastically (beyond the ECU calibration parameters) there is no need to modify it.

 

[jarpickle]

Lot of good discussion on air filters and intake design. I just wanted to comment on a few things:
1) The most restrictive location along the air intake is what limits the flow. Sometimes this happens to be the air filter and sometimes it is downstream where the manufacturer had to bend the pipe due to packaging constraints. Hence the reason some vehicles see an increase in power while others dont see any change.
2) ECU modification is completely optional or in other words is independent of the air filter. There are mass air flow sensors to detect changes in air flow. Even if the restriction is eliminated (no air filter) the existing ECU is programmed to compensate for air flow changes. Unless the air flow changes drastically (beyond the ECU calibration parameters) there is no need to modify it.

As reported by a lot of members, the ECU needs to be recalibrated to make use of the added airflow as a simple ECU reset was not able to do the trick.

 

[joeking]

ECU STFT/LTFT (fuel correction)-

Fuel trims (Short term/ Long term) are used by the ECU to keep the car at a stoich AFR in closed loop. The ECU has a certain range of correction (+/- 12% to +/- 20% ballpark) to adjust the fuel to keep the car at stoich.

When the battery is disconnected/ ECU reset, ECU will use base values from Short and Long Term Fuel Trim. Suppose air filter is dirty or you drive in high attitude (less air flow). Your car may run little rich and ECU will use Short Term Fuel Trim (STFT) to compensate it by reducing fueling. Short term fuel trims are fueling correction that’s being done by your ecu (with feed back from O2 sensor) right now. These major changes get transfered over to long-term fuel trims.

 

[ZenandEnfield]

Thanks, Jarpickle, for the info.

 

[vu2gte]

In my opinion 99.9%marketing hype .1% performance

 

[aman007]

Everyone likes to change their air filters to K&N and other high end filters.But are these really increasing the HP at wheels at all?I think it is just mental HP(all in the head) that everyone gains after adding a K&N filter.But with increased flow isn't it letting more particles into the engine.How does this help a car in the long run?If people are looking at free flow filters I think they should read this article.
Air Filtration Test

they work , about 4-5 % increase in pick up , mileage remains almost same.But somehow filtration decreased in my opinion at least.

 

[Kichu]

Re: HELP! New Maruti Wagon-R Idle Issues

Kiran, apart form the Engine oil the rest of the upgrade just won't justify the price to be paid.

Maruti uses the 5w30 in the K14B(Ertiga)

Instead of Iridium plugs, Platinum plugs would be much more cost effective.

Hai Jarpickle,

May I know how can you say its not justifiable ?

Ya maruti recommends 5w-30 in all of its k-series engine, but during my last visit to a MASS, one of the staff told they are also using 0w-20 for kb10 engine, which is bit more costlier than the usual 5w-30.

Regards.,

 

[jarpickle]

Re: HELP! New Maruti Wagon-R Idle Issues

K&N filters are made of cotton and as an example see what happens to clothing after you wash it once.Same thing happens to the filter as well.

K&N filters lose their qualities once you wash them.In a country like ours, you have to wash them often because of the dusty environs.

More about filters:
http://www.theautomotiveindia.com/f...8-high-end-air-filters-they-really-worth.html

The spark plugs easily cost around 600 each and for that price you can get 3 platinum plugs.

Also if you want benefits of Iridium, you need high output coils and good plug wires.Unless you have MSD ignition and are using NOS and dumping fuel into the engine Iridium doesn't make sense.

If you want good cold starts and longer life but at a cheaper price, go with platinum.I like NGK plugs.I have used them.

For the oil 0w40 is not needed.Unless the car is operating is sub zero temps.The M.A.S.S just hogwash the customers.But they cannot use without consulting with the customer.Since Maruti recommends 5w30 they have to use it if the customer insists.

 

[Kichu]

Re: HELP! New Maruti Wagon-R Idle Issues

K&N filters are made of cotton and as an example see what happens to clothing after you wash it once.Same thing happens to the filter as well.

K&N filters lose their qualities once you wash them.In a country like ours, you have to wash them often because of the dusty environs.

More about filters:
http://www.theautomotiveindia.com/f...8-high-end-air-filters-they-really-worth.html

The spark plugs easily cost around 600 each and for that price you can get 3 platinum plugs.



Also if you want benefits of Iridium, you need high output coils and good plug wires.Unless you have MSD ignition and are using NOS and dumping fuel into the engine Iridium doesn't make sense.

If you want good cold starts and longer life but at a cheaper price, go with platinum.I like NGK plugs.I have used them.

For the oil 0w40 is not needed.Unless the car is operating is sub zero temps.The M.A.S.S just hogwash the customers.But they cannot use without consulting with the customer.Since Maruti recommends 5w30 they have to use it if the customer insists.

Don't compare the cotton materials which are used for the K&N and for the cloths That just don't really make any sense, because K&N invented special type of cotton for the filtering purposes.

I have already washed it twice, haven't experienced such quality issue. If you do, then let them know it, if the issue is genuine you will get it replaced.
But in the case of paper filter, cleaning with compressed air(What MASS do) will definitely reduces its performances by getting a bit more restrictive since it cannot be cleaned as clean as a new filter. But yes, we can be sure that it wont let any dust inside.

Before going for these upgradation, I have gone through almost all possible links about the performance filter. So I can also provide you the links in which it says the positives of K&N.
I gathered the experiences from my friends who uses these filters and I came to know they found no issues, one of the guy completed 1lac kms in his swift without any problem.
I use to check the airbox frequently and I dont find any dust after the filter(LOL you guys may say all those dust must have entered into the engine.)

Ya it will cost too much, but you people are getting blind by looking in its initial cost.
Dont just compare the prices like (Ordinary plugs Rs.80 vs Iridium Rs.650 and Stock paper filter Rs.230 vs K&N Rs.3500)
The life of Iridium and K&N is not for few thousand kilometers they are mend for long term use. Compare the total cost for 1lac kilometers with the
stock(filter+plugs) vs Performance(filter+plugs).
After this upgradation if you get a minimum of 6paisa profit per kilometer(petrol mileage) then in the long term use, the cost is same as you spend for the stock plugs and filters.
But for me, I get a minimum of 40paisa per kilometer due to the improvement in fuel consumption.

The worth is not just known after a lac kilometers of waiting, you can really understand its worth in your ride especially when you riding at higher rpms or when you switch ON your A/C. Atleast for my car its really noticeable.

You are wrong, I recommended 0w-40 is not for meeting the environment conditions, its the alternative remedy to reduce the idle vibrations. Again 0W-40 is not just an idea, what i have said is from my experience its really helpful in achieving smoother idle but not as rev friendly as 5W-30.

No, its not wrong. I have also seen the engine oil chart in MASS(HARCARS KANNUR) about the 0w-20 grade oils, It was recommended to all 1L k-series engine, I dont remember well, on the next visit I will get a pic of that chart.
The automotive lubricant company "TOTAL" is associated with Maruti Suzuki and supplies new generation 0W20, 5W30 grade engine oils and 75W90, 75W80 grade transmission oils.
Total Quartz SMC 0W20 Check it out.

 

[jarpickle]

Re: HELP! New Maruti Wagon-R Idle Issues

Kiran, it is not only my opinion.A lot of people who have used these filters have reported the same.

How different can it be, the base properties are still going to be the same.Cotton is in fact cotton.They might have tweaked it a little.

The issue is not only with K&N filters, please check out the thread and you can see what members from our forum have posted.

These high flow filters do allow more air, but is the air so pure that it doesn't have any dirt?

K&N has not officially launched in India.Will dealers honor the warranty?

The engine oil is selected based on the environment where the engine will be used.0w40 is not needed for places where there isn't subzero temperature.Please see your owners manual for the temperature to viscosity range.Please understand what the numbers in the oil really mean.Just because so and so is available doesn't mean it is intended for everyone, user discretion is advised.

If Maruti would allow it I would use 20w-40 in my car.But alas they threw the warranty flag when I asked about providing the oil.

Kiran, are you really planning to use your car for 1 lac kms on the same filter and same spark plugs?

I see you have not commented on platinum plugs.I have discussions with people who make ignition coils to know what kind of plus work best in what scenario.

Maruti sells cars and claims so and so mileage, do you really get the claimed mileage in the real world?

Just because a filter maker or a plug manufacturer claims it doesn't mean it will behave the same way in the real world.

I have used NGK plugs and I have read so many people post online that the electrodes had broke off within a day of usage.Luckily I have not faced such a dilemma myself.There is no guarantee on how long anything will last.It is upto the manufacturer and dealer to honor the warranty.Which is never straight forward.

 

[Kichu]

Re: HELP! New Maruti Wagon-R Idle Issues

Kiran, it is not only my opinion.A lot of people who have used these filters have reported the same.

How different can it be, the base properties are still going to be the same.Cotton is in fact cotton.They might have tweaked it a little.

The issue is not only with K&N filters, please check out the thread and you can see what members from our forum have posted.

These high flow filters do allow more air, but is the air so pure that it doesn't have any dirt?

K&N has not officially launched in India.Will dealers honor the warranty?

The engine oil is selected based on the environment where the engine will be used.0w40 is not needed for places where there isn't subzero temperature.Please see your owners manual for the temperature to viscosity range.Please understand what the numbers in the oil really mean.Just because so and so is available doesn't mean it is intended for everyone, user discretion is advised.

If Maruti would allow it I would use 20w-40 in my car.But alas they threw the warranty flag when I asked about providing the oil.

Kiran, are you really planning to use your car for 1 lac kms on the same filter and same spark plugs?

I see you have not commented on platinum plugs.I have discussions with people who make ignition coils to know what kind of plus work best in what scenario.

Maruti sells cars and claims so and so mileage, do you really get the claimed mileage in the real world?

Just because a filter maker or a plug manufacturer claims it doesn't mean it will behave the same way in the real world.

I have used NGK plugs and I have read so many people post online that the electrodes had broke off within a day of usage.Luckily I have not faced such a dilemma myself.There is no guarantee on how long anything will last.It is upto the manufacturer and dealer to honor the warranty.Which is never straight forward.

Hi Jarpickle,

"A lot of people who have used these filters have reported the same"
May i know who are those people? Are they here in TAI ? Can you tell me how they found K&N is harming their engine?

I wonder how can you generalize these cottons, there are more than 30 types of cotton plants in the world.
What about me saying "Paper is in fact paper" Does it sounds any sense? Just compare the characteristics between the tissue paper, bond-paper and cardboard.

In my first post I have clearly mentioned that I'm speaking about the K&N filter and 0w-40 Mobil1 engine oil.
Yes I have gone through the thread you have mentioned. But I did't find a member saying the negatives of K&N after USING it.(Sorry if i have missed it, If I do, then i humbly request you to tell me its post number.)

Definitely it contains dust particle, even the stock paper filter will also let dust particles inside, but the matter is these particles are not big enough to harm the engine in the near future.

After making the purchase you have to register your product online for the warranty. Now when the situation calls for it, just drop a mail to them regarding your issue then they will let you know the further procedures.
K&N is not just giving the warranty for your filter, but also for the engine.
They are ready to pay for the repairs which are directly caused by the malfunctioning of K&N Filter. You have to just provide the proof for that.
K&N Product Warranties (More info)

Now about 0W-40 grade.
Consider 5W-30 value as (5w=LEFT side value) and (30=RIGHT side value)
For the kseries engine the minimum LEFT side value recommenced by maruti is 10w and the maximum RIGHT side value is 40.
Out of this maruti preferred grade is 5w-30 for better mileage and performances.
So using a SAE 40 grade oil wont harm the engine under any circumstances, since it is under the recommended value.
The reason for recommending 0w-40 why because, this is the grade of oil in which I have used and experienced the smoothness in the kseries 3cylinder engine. and I really don't know whether we have 5w-40 or 10w-40 mobil1 fully synthtc engine oil over here in india.
By the by presently My MASS do also provide mobil1 0w-40 fullysynthetic engine oil for the extra premium cost.

Your car is M800 right, So whats the problem in using 20w-40? I believe its the maruti recommended grade.
Ya MASS wont accept any spares or products provided by the customer for servicing their car. But if you have a good relation with them, they will help you.
For the last two oil changes I have provided the engine oil and requested them to use it.

If I dont go for a FFE, surely I will be using the same K&N filter.
But If I get to find even more better performing spark plug for this engine, I will definitely go for that.(Since this iridium plug is not exactly same as the spec of stock plug)

Frankly speaking I don't have experiences with the platinum plugs, and I dont have much knowledge about the benefits of upgrading ignition coils for the less modified engine. So its better for me to be quite in these topics than saying blunders

Under normal usage(city+highway+less usuage of ac) My fuel consumption swings between 16 to 17.5kmpl, but when i did a mileage test on highway with 3 people on board without AC for 40kms, I got a mileage of 22.3 kmpl.

Ya sure.
In the 1Lac Scenario, I consider the maximum life of a stock plug as 50k and iridium plug as 1lac.

What do you mean by NGK plugs.,? NGK Iridium or the normal NGK plugs?
May be thats true, some people may experienced some problems, but it doesn't mean all the NGK plugs are bad for the engine.
Even the maruti cars are experiencing premature failures, does it mean all those types of maruti cars are bad to own?
I think you generalizes everything too much.

Regards.,

 

[jarpickle]

Re: HELP! New Maruti Wagon-R Idle Issues

Have you looked at the chemical composition of the varieties of cotton, the base properties will be the same.

Paper is used as filter element because it lets lesser particles through than cotton.Why do you think paper is still used more widely than other materials like cotton or foam.Paper is more restrictive because of smaller pores.Hence it does provide better filtration.

Paper is infact paper.Have I claimed it to be anything else?

Over a period of time the car will show excess signs of wear.At races and drags free flow filters are good.These cars undergo engine rebuilds after races.In everyday use the dirt buildup can be harmful.

The consumer must provide a written statement or repair order from the dealership or service provider in which the dealership or service provider blames the problem or warranty denial on a K&N product;
The service provider or consumer must provide K&N with all allegedly damaged parts. Many states have laws that require a service provider to retain all parts replaced during a vehicle repair, unless given consent to dispose of the parts by the consumer. K&N will pay the shipping cost to recover these parts; and
The consumer must provide proof of purchase of the K&N product along with cooperation in helping us investigate the claim.

In case of engine damage, good luck sending an engine block to USA for analysis by K&N

The number before the W indicated cold viscosity of the oil and the number after the W indicates the hot viscosity of the oil.

The lower number before the W is for cold cranks.A 0w oil is suitable for cold cranks where the temps go below -40°C.Are you using the car is such climates?

Unless you are going to places where its freezing you do not need 0w oil.

Try and understand this basic fact.

I want to use 20w40 in our Ertiga.Because lets face it.I live in Mumbai and here 15w40 and 20w40 work like a charm.

I have used copper,platinum and iridium plugs from NGK and there is no difference in the platinum and iridium ones.

I would ask you to please check the condition of your plugs ever 15000kms because any kind of plug starts pitting after a while and it needs to be cleaned or changed accordingly.

Stock plugs(copper)need to be replaced every 10000kms according to my 800's manual.

I am not sure whats the service limit for the Ertiga.

Kiran,I think you blindly follow whatever is out there.Try and understand what kind of usage these parts are intended for.

PS:I will go though the thread and post who have used the filter and said it wasn't effective after washing.

 

[jarpickle]

Re: HELP! New Maruti Wagon-R Idle Issues

Please check post #25 of the thread:

http://www.theautomotiveindia.com/f...high-end-air-filters-they-really-worth-2.html

If you want longer lasting spark plugs, try the Bosch +4 series.They have 4 electrodes and they last longer than single electrode ones.

You still have to clean them at regular intervals.

 

[Kichu]

Re: HELP! New Maruti Wagon-R Idle Issues

"Paper is used as filter element because it lets lesser particles through than cotton"
You are absolutely wrong, paper is used not because of its character to let lesser particles. For a filter paper, letting the particles are purely based on its pore size.
I believe it is widely used since it is cheap to afford and less effort to maintain.
The filtering of K&N is not just based on its pore size. Remember 1 thing, your paper filter will also let the particles which are less than the size of its pore.

I request you to read it again. I said that since you have claimed cotton is infact cotton.

Do you think they undergo engine rebuilds only because of the usage of performance Airfilters?
I believe those race filters are far different from this stock replacement filter that i use in my car.

Yes, I agree with you. It will be really a pain for the people in INDIA to sent those engine components to them. But tell me what about the people over there in USA?
I believe K&N have more costumers in USA than in INDIA. 90% of the INDIAN customers are having the vehicles under 10Lacs rupees. Then what about the vehicles over there in USA? They do even have products for LAMBORGHINI.

Experts says, engine wears the most during in its cold start, that means for the first 10-20secs. Do you Believe this?
Nobody will say 0W must be used only for the places where the temperature gets to freezing. Lower the cold viscosity higher the cold start protection.
I HAVE ALREADY TOLD YOU THE REASON FOR RECOMMENDING 0W-40,.
REPEATING IT ONCE AGAIN,
SINCE 0W-40 IS THE ONLY MOBIL1 FULLY SYNTHETIC ENGINE OIL WHICH IS AVAILABLE OVER HERE IN INDIA. I DONT KNOW WHETHER THEY HAVE 5W-40 OR 10W-40. YES THEY ALSO HAVE 5W-30, BUT FOR THE BETTER SMOOTHER IDLE FOR THE KB10 ENGINE, 40GRADE OIL IS REQUIRED AND THAT IS WHAT MY EXPERIENCE.

I believe I have some basic knowledge atleast for the kb10 engine oils. Correct me if I'm wrong, you are Always welcome.

Whats the recommended grade of engine oil for Ertiga? Isn't it the same 5w-30?
I still cant understand why you are more conscious to get higher cold viscous oil even which is out of the range recommended by the manufacture. What benefits you get from it, can you please explain your view?


In a-star manual, it recommends plug replacement in 4years/40,000kms
Even the MASS forced me to change the stock plug only when i went for the 30,000kms service. So without any issue Its really useless to inspect the iridium plug with a mileage of 15,000kms.

"Kiran,I think you blindly follow whatever is out there.Try and understand what kind of usage these parts are intended for."
Listen, I will change my iridium plugs when they start showing any sign of weakness, I dont have any intention to use it till a particular period of time. Since most of the users have got a very good period of life with their iridium plugs, I'm also expecting it, thats all.

Jarpickle, You are very much confused with the "LIFE OF A PRODUCT" AND THE "WARRANTY OF THE PRODUCT".
K&N claims a warranty of 1,60,000kms and it still doesn't mean its useless after these kms.
For example: Consider a CFL lamp, most of them comes with a one year warranty, but it doesn't mean they are useless after an year.
Similarly it also doesn't mean a car is useless and worthless after completing its warranty period.
So if something goes wrong in its warranty period, you have the right to get it rectified.

Please check post #25 of the thread:

http://www.theautomotiveindia.com/f...high-end-air-filters-they-really-worth-2.html

If you want longer lasting spark plugs, try the Bosch +4 series.They have 4 electrodes and they last longer than single electrode ones.

You still have to clean them at regular intervals.

Really thanks for spending your valuable time to get me the right thread and post number :)

Jarpickle, Im really sorry to say, if these are the kinds of experiences you are considering to blame K&N then its really wrong.

Prads said.
"we had suspected after some running the washing solution left behind in the the airfilter was coating the sensors"
Here how can you blame the K&N filter. If the filter is not cleaned and oiled well ,obviously it will go wrong.

"I agree with "jarpickle" that most of this is down to mental HP(imagination),like a exhaust end can on a car can make you feel like its from The Fast & the Furious."
I didn't ever say you can gain lots of extra horsepower. But obviously its noticeable especially when you switch ON the A/C or when you are at higher rpm since the engine can rev much better with the less restrictive filter.

"Remember mild improvement in throttle response does not mean increase in power."
He agreed the mild improvement in throttle response. right?
Here the improvement in throttle response means when we apply the throttle, without any delay by wasting up the fuel, it shows the better combustion on your wheels. Yes that is the only thing we can expect it from upgrading the intake alone in a stock engine.

For stabilizing its initial cost, you don't even need to get an increase of 2 or 3 kms of extra mileage. Instead a slight increase in mileage(eg:- 14.17kmpl insteaed of 14kmpl) is enough to meet the price in long run.

PS:When I changed to K&N, the stock paper filter was fresh and clean. so the noticeable changes are genuine.

Thanks for the suggestion. I will check the Bosch +4 series.

Regards.,

 

[jarpickle]

Re: HELP! New Maruti Wagon-R Idle Issues

Kiran, if the filter is allowing more air it is allowing more particles in.If filtration is needed paper does a better job.Please check the test that was conducted and read the results.If not for filtration then what is a FILTER for?

Paper pores are finer than cotton pores.Paper is more restrictive but it filters better.

You are wrong, I am not blaming K&N.They do make a good product is it really good for everyday use is my question.

Yes throttle response has improved.Have you driven a car without a filter and felt the throttle response?The improvement is due to the free flowing type of filter construction and if you read the thread and posted the correct details, this was mainly due to the conical filter which uses the same material as the stock replacement filter but is placed outside the box and is directly fed air from the front grille.Hence the improvement. Conicals are way more expensive and require correct plumbing as well.

The washing liquid that you are talking about could be the oil that was used to coat the filter.Maybe prads was mistaken what it was, they had oil dripping from the filter in the test done here Air Filtration Test

I do not know how they handle engine failures in the US .But I am sure a lot of passing the blame happens there as well.

The race engines undergo rebuild thing was mentioned because even if particulates enter the engine due to lack of filtration quality the engine damage will be repaired before the next race.Do we rebuild our daily drive everyday?Any damage that happens once will be recurring everyday till the engine component is so worn out that that engine needs a rebuild.
Even if the initial damage was caused due to filter failure how will the user know?Do we have such genius mechanics that can tell us what was the initial catalyst that led to engine failure?

So according to you only 0w40 provide good cold starts?Why are the other grade of oils even made?All multigrade oils have good cold start protection.If you idle your car for a few minutes after you start it, there will be less damage with 5w30,10w 40 and 15w40 and 20w40.The cold start temperature condition depends on the environment temperature.Do you understand this, even if it goes to -40°C then with 0w40 you start and can drive your car without the engine ceasing due to the oil freezing.

Down south does the temperature go below -40°C outside?No.

Based on the temperature outside and using the viscosity range provided by Maruti any oil that suits the temperature range in your area of choice will provide protection from the time you turn on the key.

For example, if it is 30°C outside do you think the engine is going to be frozen that a normal 15W40 oil will do damage at cold start?No

Yes you are right about the 40grade.It is essential in all parts of our country.

Based on my experiences, the lower viscosity oils make the engine sound strained once it has reached optimal operating temperature.For atleast in the southern part of India they are not needed.This is not the case with higher viscosity oils like 15w40 and 20w40.

If you look closely at your service book's service limit page, you will see the spark plugs need to be inspected and cleaned at regular intervals and the gap needs to be checked as well.Ignore this at your own peril.

As for the mileage.I was getting 20 with copper plugs, 24 with platinum plugs and 24 with Iridium plugs.No difference there.The high jump you see from copper to platinum is due to the addition of extra ignition coils.Rs200 plugs and Rs650 plugs are giving me the same output.Now what?

I get you need to defend your purchases, but don't just say what I am saying is absolutely wrong.

PS:On a side note, we have gone way off topic here.I guess we can continue this discussion else where.