Force Trax Gurkha or Mahindra Thar - Which is Better Off-Roader?


Which is the best Off-roader


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Hello friends just logged on to Automotiveindia and this is my first post .
Let me start by stating that this discussion on Thar vs Gurkha has what has brought me here .
I am an avid offroader and have been doing it for the last four years .
More importantly I am also an owner of the Gurkha Trax for the last 3 years.
I have been arranging Offroad events around Mumbai and I was fortunate enough to have been called by Force Motors to test their New Upgraded Trax Gurkha.
I have written a detailed account of my experience with the new vehicle and you could google " Pre-release Test ride of the New Gurkha " to get a hang of what is expected form the New Gurkha .
I own a Nissan Patrol I 6 3.2 Litres , a 4wd Scorpio mHawk and a Tata Telcoline 4x4 backie . I have extensively driven the Mahindra Thar and the Tata Xenon 4wd .

Since the discussion Thar vs Gurkha , I vote solidly for Gurkha .

Heres why :
  1. The Gurkha has a lineage .It was first designed at the FML ,erstwhile Bajaj Tempo by Dr.Robert Bacher the Co-CEO from the Mercedes side since Bajaj Tempo had a tie up with Merecedes at that time .
  2. The Gurkha derives form the G wagen literally . It has a tubular chassis ,which no Indian vehicle has ,which has an extreme flex. The front IFS is a very sturdy Hanomag derived Suspension ,extremely rugged and has never failed me despite the extreme uses we put it too. The rear axle is a W460 MB derived rated at 4 ton ,virtually indestructible. Whereas the concept of Differential lockers is relatively new , the Gurkha boasted front and rear differential lockers way back 10 years ago. Add to that the rugged engine ready to take on the worst of India fuels , a massive GC of 230 mm and a custom snorkel. The gear ratio at the rear axle is 4.89:1 which gives you loads of torque at lower RPM for that "crawl". Above all the Gurkha is the only vehicle which has a divorced transfer case .
  3. It has the least overhang and the best approach angle comparable to any European or American SUV. The ramp break over angle is superb and so also the gradeability.
  4. I can do an extreme offroading event at Chennai and drive back home to Mumbai in comfort with my family in a hard top Gurkha which has a stock A/c.power steering and power brakes. Could you do that with a custom Thar ?
  5. The Gurkha has the best water fording capabilities due to the optimal positioning of its engine components, mimimalisitic electronics and a snorkel . During a bizarre offroading event at pavana lake we managed to push the Gurkha half windscreen down the lake and came out unscathed.

I would compare it to the Thar very soon in my next write up so that we could be clear as to what we have in terms of comforts ,spares ,costs etc.

MY LOYAL COMPANION
final my gurkha.jpg
 
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Bang on first post! Mohan Firstly a very warm welcome to TAI.
I am a big fan of the Gurkha and the Gurkha owners automatically deserve the greatest of the respect in my eyes. I would greatly appreciate your insights as a owner and better still request you for a dedicated Gurkha ownership thread(beg, borrow or steal!)

Once again welcome to TAI and eagerly look forward to your experiences and especially what you think of the New upcoming Gurkha.
 
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a very warm welcome to TAI. You indeed have some interesting rides. I too love the ghurkha. Eagerly waiting for a review. [clap][:D]
 
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@Mohan: Welcome to TAI brother!! Heard that Force has tampered with the gear ratios of new Gurkha to make it more highway friendly(read little taller).Is it true? If yes then will it affect its off-road prowess?
 
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Bang on first post! Mohan Firstly a very warm welcome to TAI.
I am a big fan of the Gurkha and the Gurkha owners automatically deserve the greatest of the respect in my eyes. I would greatly appreciate your insights as a owner and better still request you for a dedicated Gurkha ownership thread(beg, borrow or steal!)

Once again welcome to TAI and eagerly look forward to your experiences and especially what you think of the New upcoming Gurkha.
Thanks Iron Rock for the big Welcome and the kind words .
Definitely I do intend to put up an ownership thread on this wonderful site.
I have already had a test Ride of the New Gurkha at the FML plant last month and I would narrate all my experiences.

a very warm welcome to TAI. You indeed have some interesting rides. I too love the ghurkha. Eagerly waiting for a review. [clap][:D]
Theferrarifan,thanks again.

@Mohan: Welcome to TAI brother!! Heard that Force has tampered with the gear ratios of new Gurkha to make it more highway friendly(read little taller).Is it true? If yes then will it affect its off-road prowess?
THE XOVER , you are right about the gear ratios, they are taller ,hence better highway experience with a trade-off in the offroading capabilities.

Returning to the topic , THAR VS GURKHA, in my opinion these 2 vehicles better not be compared ,although both serve the common offroading passion.

Be it as it may let me put a concise comparison in a tabular form below.
We could discuss each issues later on.

THAR VS GURKHA.jpg


SOME GURKHA PICTURES :

ta gurkha1.jpg
TAI GURKHA 2.jpg
TAI GURKHA 3.jpg
TAI GURKHA 4.jpg
TAI GURKHA 5.jpg
 

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Dr Mohan

Welcome to TAI have a wonderful stay and kindly educate us with your expreince .

What great changes have they made in the new Gurkha , are the interiors better ? I have never seen the Gurkha in real but heard interiors are not good and the Gurkha cannot be considered as a family car . I have driven the thar and the interiors are atrocious and pathetic . Do you think the new Gurkha has better interiors then the current thar ? Can you please tells us about the new Gurkha and how more refined it is or not then the previous one and the current thar ?
 
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The Gurkha may be an awesome off roader but looks horrible. If anyone remembers the first Trax (not Gurkha), it looked exactly like the Merc G Wagen. Even the Trax Judo and the first Gurkha (round lights) looked ok but not this one. I wold go with the Thar anyday.
 
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@Dr Mohan:
A very very warm welcome to TAI, eh..you keep on bringing Gurkha and I can welcome you daily!!:stupid:

After looking at all the pics I am like "I too need one" and hence now I am thinking how to justify buying one!! Again :stupid:

Those pics are a treat to eyes, kindly bring up an ownership review of yours so that we can understand Gurkha even better.

BTW, Gurkha has differential locks, are they electronic or one has to manually lock them? If they are locked manually then how?

BTW, why don't you add this one - "You Don't Own The Gurkha,The Gurkha Owns You !" as your signature?? I just got excited reading this line!! Again :stupid:
 
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The Gurkha may be an awesome off roader but looks horrible. If anyone remembers the first Trax (not Gurkha), it looked exactly like the Merc G Wagen. Even the Trax Judo and the first Gurkha (round lights) looked ok but not this one. I wold go with the Thar anyday.
No offense Peter,but how in the world would being better looker help Thar as a serious off-roader? Also please check the thread title,we want to know how capable these two are in serious off-road trials,aesthetics won't help them there,will it?
 
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No offense Peter,but how in the world would being better looker help Thar as a serious off-roader? Also please check the thread title,we want to know how capable these two are in serious off-road trials,aesthetics won't help them there,will it?
I am not saying that the Thar is a better off-roader or that looks will make it so. The first part of my post is relevant to the thread title. Was just comparing the looks in the rest of the statement. I don't think it is absolutely necessary that every post strictly adheres to the title of the thread. We acn also discuss other things on the side.

Just to clarify, I feel the Gurkha is a better offroader than the Thar (CRDe).
 
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@Peter: Agree with you that our posts should not always revolve around the thread title.But my point was why should any one decide to buy an off-roader(hardcore) for better looks? For me the purchase criteria should be out and out off-road prowess(until one wants to buy the vehicle just for show off)? What do you say?
 
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@Peter: Agree with you that our posts should not always revolve around the thread title.But my point was why should any one decide to buy an off-roader(hardcore) for better looks? For me the purchase criteria should be out and out off-road prowess(until one wants to buy the vehicle just for show off)? What do you say?
Guys how many of you really want a hardcore off-roader with a box look? we people are not going for rally and all. and what is it wrong in showing off after spending a 7.5 lakhs,Gurkha may be a better off roader than Thar but we are not travelling always on off-roads and these hard top and the doors will rattle as in old trax in future.
THAR because:
1. good looking
2. powerfull
3. good pedigree
4. more comfort
5. less rattling
6. less maintenance
7. spares easily available

AND i love the jeep look of thar above all.

If these two cars are strictly for off road then many will they sell?

If these cars are strictly for Off road then how many will they sell?

Guys if these two cars are strictly made for off roads then how many will they sell?
 

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I received a call from Force Motors Pune one late evening and to my surprise I was invited to take a test ride of the new Gurkha. The very prospect was an exciting one and I couldn't wait for the next 14 hours to check what the new Gurkha had in store.

At the Force Motors Office Pune, I had a very warm welcome and was taken to another section of the company premises.

To my great disappointment, we had to leave our mobiles & cameras at the security counter.

So no photos ,videos etc..

On the way to the testing grounds (FML is a 260 acre property), we saw superb testing facilities for MAN trucks, which apparently are no longer with FML.

So coming straight to the point.

We saw the new Gurkha. It was poorly camouflaged; black color and the usual 3 door variant.

The exteriors:

The vehicle's original stance is unchanged
Roof ski racks installed
The front grill has been changed and the looks are definitely fresh
The lamps are round projectors
The snorkel is standard
Typical bonnet mounted indicator lamps remain
The fenders are no more iron, but of fiber instead
The cow guard is yet unchanged and present
The skid plate under the front diffs are the same and so also under the fuel tank
The rear looks good due to the new bumper (again fiber) with a different tail lamp assembly and the neat alloy wheel
The side steps are aluminium and rear view mirrors plastic

Opened the bonnet and there was a sigh of relief.

The clutter and untidiness of the engine bay is no longer there. The bonnet underside is now lined with heat and sound absorbing materials.

The EGR valve is here to stay, but now has an EGR cooler unit. This EGR cooler unit will further reduce soot formation and the engine performance.

The turbocharger +intercooler assembly is the same. Battery position is the same.

Front axles have a different housing .

The engine is the same 2.8L Di FTI 4 cylinder. It comes with the same VP37 Bosch ECU.

The GM of R & D Mr.Gurav told us that the power specs have been improved and no more does this engine throw a 56kw (75 BHP) power output the older Gurkhas had. Hastily, he declined to offer me the exact specs. "You will know when the vehicle is launched", he said.

Wheels: Stock size now is 245/70 R16. Comes with Apollo A/T tubeless & alloys. Alloys are decent and look good. The wheel arches are superior to the older ones.

Significant Changes in the transmission line. The crown and pinion ratio is 4.3:1 (as compared with 4.88:1 in the previous Gurkha). The final ratio at the wheels remain almost the same, since the new tire sizes are 245/70 (7.5 R16 in the older versions). The new tyre height is 29.5 inches as compared to the older 31 inches. That brings down the ground clearance and increases the overall rpm at the tyres.

We will see how the above factor transmits into the final performance of the vehicle later.

After all these observations, I decided to enter the cock-pit.

The seats are space age stuff as compared to the older Gurkha seats. Nice, comfortable & adequate back and thigh support. They also sport an arm-rest..Driver side leg room is good.

Co-driver side space is a little cramped if you are taller than 5'10". The rear seats are comfortable too.

The gear shift, both the normal and 4wd are space age material. They slot in smoothly and effortlessly. All past Gurkha owners had to use both their hands to change the 4wd gear shift, once in a while, when the vehicle was new . In this Gurkha, a 10 year old girl can slide the 4wd gear shifter easily .

The steering wheel is the same, but the drive is much smoother. It also gave proper feedback of the road below while driving.

The dash is the same old creepy plastic with an incorporated RPM meter, clock and (I was told) optional GPS. The indicator cluster is the same. EDC light is now housed in the main cluster (and not separately). The air con vents are different, but still appear cheap.

The handbrake is at a much better place. In the center, near the gear shifter, rather than the very inconvenient lateral position of the old Gurkha.

The diff locks are cable operated and have the same turn and pull switch.

The new Gurkha is minus the PTO now .

THE DRIVE:

At the turn of the key, the engine started and the noise is far lesser than it was supposed to be.

The drive revealed far lesser NVH levels than I had experienced in my new Gurkha. The ubiquitous rattles for which the Gurkha was known seem to have finally evolved (or atleast in this test mule). The burst of power was amazing. Throttle response was linear and the power was coming on effortlessly without any lag.

Couldn't do a max speed test since the factory did not have an open track to check it. The turbo kicks off very soon in the low rpm range and is active mostly throughout the entire rpm range..a characteristic of the Gurkha.

Braking was excellent.

Then we headed to the Force Motors Offroad testing facility

FML engineers cautioned me that driving on the offroading ground needed extreme skills. A small hillock with steep climbs, descents and an inclined plane was all that FML had for its offroading track. The entire track difficulty could, at best, be described as "medium" for a regular offroader.

The best part of the track however was the diff-lock pit trail, something which amazed me and I couldn't help but profusely appreciate the track designer Mr Gurav .

Enter the offroad trail. I wasn't allowed to drive first. The R&D guys drove the vehicle throughout the track and then offered me a drive.

Put the vehicle in first LOW and let it crawl. The performance was amazing, the vehicle simply carried itself at crawl through all the obstacles, no matter how steep the climb was. I had to engage the rear diff lock at 2 places only whilst going through the articulation pit track.

Give this vehicle to a novice with some gall and a brain sound enough to use the steering wheel, and the Gurkha would take him places without any effort.

A major downside : The descend is not that good now and slight braking needs to be applied, otherwise the vehicle comes down rather fast. This is something that Gurkha owners never faced before .

Overall conclusion about the drive :

1] NVH vastly reduced.

2] More power available at all rpm ranges.

3] Superb crawl.

4] Better articulation, smaller wheel?

5] Adequate braking on slopes.

6} Superb gradeability.

7] The descends are not that good. One does need to brake, otherwise the vehicle comes down pretty fast. One of the main forte of a Gurkha is its water fording capacity, its crawl and the sure-shot, safe steep descent. With the New Gurkha, the "mantra" for a very steep descend will no longer be "NO ABC".

OVERALL IMPRESSION OF THE VEHICLE:

I am in love with the Gurkha again, simply because this is what we had wanted from a Gurkha and which we as current owners did not get.

Better interiors, better workmanship, better material used, a peppier engine, a more serviceable engine bay, an easy to use gear shift, comfortable seats, stock alloys, choice of colors (Red, white and black), both hard top and soft top variants and much more. The A/T tyres provided with this vehicle are much better than the hard JK no-good tyres which used to be the stock tyres of the older Gurkhas. The looks are also better

The downside is the reduced GC, say by an inch, the reduced gear ratios, absence of the PTO and the use of new "rear axles ". I mentioned the last as a downside, since the rear axles on the older Gurkhas were simply indestructible (derived from MB).

Prices and the exact release date were kept classified. However, FML says it will launch the vehicle in the next month. It was learnt that FORCE ONE with the 4wd and ABS variant is also slated for a launch next month.
 
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Many Thanks Mohan, I am indebted, absence of PTO doesnt worry me as much (i do have a tractor btw) , but you mentioned small wheels / new rear axles and reduced GC - is it something to worry about in terms of lineage continuation ?

Also i guess rumours of the force one 140 bhp engine doesnt seem right anymore as you mention a 2.8 ltr DI. I hope its 100-120 bhp range atleast.

I for one cant wait for this launch!
 
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