Tata Storme vs Mahindra XUV5OO - Which One To Choose?

[Raja]

Thanks Superbad.

I am waiting to see more comments from the team.

@ Suhas

Whatever Superbad has posted is 100% correct .

And I belive both the cars are not reporting any issues now . But being tata and mahindra one can't guarantee anything this is something which you must be very much aware of .

If you are expecting a Honda or Toyota kind of reliability you " might " be expecting too much .

Both tata and mahindra do have a honest intention and effort to provide the best of service possible and at times excel and even fall on face .

Some people freak out on even small issues and some take them in stride and move ahead ( both are right on their part ) so it depends on your own outlook towards such things also .

 

[Raja]

pics clicked on Tuesday this week in WASAN TATA chembur mumbai

the good looking guy you see siting in the lounge clean shaven is our member storme911.

with the technicians under the storme with jeans shirt and jeans is me which shows they actually allowed us to visit the floor and see how they work .

rest is the servicing bay and the over all look of the a.s.s and washing area .

the proper report will be written by storme911 on storme official thread on the forum and his views may differ from mine as he is the owner of the storme and not me . what i have posted here is my experience with 1 of the many tata a.s.s in mumbai personally while comparing it to chevorlet a,s,s which I visit to service my car .

 

[Tornado]

Dear Tornado,
! If I need to prove that M&M is so good, why would I update my ownership thread with negative stories of them

If you are saying that I Am biased

Buddy , I didn't wanted to say that you are biased , infact , in this tata storme vs M&M XUV thread I highlighted that you have posted similar experiences about ASS of both the manufacturers, which in other words indicates unbiased views.Rest of my comment was pun intended as shown with the help of signboard.

@ Raja , Both TATA and mahindrs are cdefinitely capable of providing reliability similar to hondas and toyota , but the customers need to pay charges similar to what hondas and toyota ask for. Irony here is that people pay the premium to foreign co.s without any fuss but when it comes to pay the Indian co. , they start yelling.

 

[Raja]

@ Raja , Both TATA and mahindrs are cdefinitely capable of providing reliability similar to hondas and toyota , but the customers need to pay charges similar to what hondas and toyota ask for. Irony here is that people pay the premium to foreign co.s without any fuss but when it comes to pay the Indian co. , they start yelling.

You are right , still tata and mahindra don't have the expreince of Toyota and Honda in making relatively reliable cars .
Toyota cars and Honda cars worldwide are like what tata and mahindra cars are for India . Cheap to buy

. The only additional word that gets attached with them worldwide is reliability and this word is still a miles away when it comes to tata and mahindra ( though they are improving at a faster pace )

The Bentley is extremely expensive then Honda and Toyota yet not reliable so its not only related to money here .

The japnese have that in their culture and ethics that this the reason from car to camera everything is of excellent quality and equally good performance .

Worldwide car makers who are and were leaders are constantly studying the manufacturing process adopted by japansese to understand how they make cars which are blend of reliability , performance and cheaper price to own and buy .

Read this

Honda named most reliable car for eighth year in a row while Bentley hits back at claim 86% of cars suffered faults last year

Read more: Most reliable cars 2013: Honda tops league while Bentley comes last | This is Money

And read this too

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_makes_Japan's_industry_so_successful#page1

And
Man behind the quality control practiced in Japan .

William Edwards Deming (October 14, 1900 – December 20, 1993) was an American statistician, professor, author, lecturer and consultant. He is perhaps best known for the "Plan-Do-Check-Act" cycle popularly named after him. In Japan, from 1950 onwards, he taught top management how to improve design (and thus service), product quality, testing, and sales (the last through global markets)[1] through various methods, including the application of statistical methods.
Deming made a significant contribution to Japan's later reputation for innovative high-quality products and its economic power. He is regarded as having had more impact upon Japanese manufacturing and business than any other individual not of Japanese heritage. Despite being considered something of a hero in Japan, he was only just beginning to win widespread recognition in the U.S. at the time of his death.[2] President Reagan awarded the National Medal of Technology to Deming in 1987. He received in 1988 the Distinguished Career in Science award from the National Academy of Sciences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

And another intresting read is this

What have Japanese automobile manufacturers developed to create their current competitive advantage? It is reported that the major Japanese automobile manufacturers are world class in performance but what are the core competencies that have enabled these companies to be considered worthy of this reputation? The answer to this question would seem to be that they have developed a manufacturing capability that is an enhancement to that developed by the use of the traditional approach to car production. This innovative approach has been named the ‘just-in-time’ or lean manufacturing approach.

This innovative approach to car manufacture has resulted in the development of core competencies that were not present in the mass production system developed by the Ford Motor Company. The foundation for development of these core competencies is based upon two critical resource management strategies, i.e. the development of highly productive and reliable processes and human resources with greater skills and knowledge. These two resource management strategies are fundamental to a world class manufacturing capability.

The Japanese Automotive Industry

The origins of the world class manufacturing capability developed by the Japanese automotive industry were detailed in a paper written by Taiichi Ohno in 1970. In this paper the author described the Toyota car production system. The title of this paper, literally and roughly translated, was as follows “The efficient management of materials and the humanisation of work”.

In the West, we interpreted the principles outlined by Ohno in his paper to a manufacturing management approach defined as ‘just-in-time’. It is interesting to reflect now on that limited interpretation. The focus of the competitors of the Japanese automotive industry switched to the ‘just-in-time’ management of materials. Until recently, we neglected the latter part of the Ohno approach to manufacturing system development, i.e. the “humanisation of work”.

Although Ohno had explained how Toyota was able to build more reliable and lower cost cars, it was not until 1990 that the full extent of the competitive advantage gained by the Japanese automotive industry was fully realised. This realisation was obtained through a major study carried out by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in 1990. In the report that detailed the findings of this study it was clear that the Japanese automotive industry had developed greater competencies at the fast development of new products, the management of suppliers and the production of higher quality and lower cost products. The extent of their better performances at these activities was substantial and shocking to the management of all of those companies who were the leading manufacturers in this industry at that time.

Throughout this period, the management of the global manufacturing competitors of the Japanese automotive manufacturing companies were adopting what they interpreted to be the Toyota production management approach to car manufacture. Why did the substantial gap in competitiveness between Japanese automobile manufacturing companies and their competitors prevail?

https://www.som.cranfield.ac.uk/som...t.aspx?pageid=13273&apptype=think&article=154

 

[raj_5004]

Buddy , I didn't wanted to say that you are biased , infact , in this tata storme vs M&M XUV thread I highlighted that you have posted similar experiences about ASS of both the manufacturers, which in other words indicates unbiased views.Rest of my comment was pun intended as shown with the help of signboard.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

You are right , still tata and mahindra don't have the expreince of Toyota and Honda in making relatively reliable cars .
Toyota cars and Honda cars worldwide are like what tata and mahindra cars are for India . Cheap to buy

. The only additional word that gets attached with them worldwide is reliability and this word is still a miles away when it comes to tata and mahindra ( though they are improving at a faster pace )

You are right. The Japs are good in making cars which are reliable, efficient and still cheap to buy (relatively). They are the innovators of manufacturing processes like Kaizen and Just-In-Time.

But I have always felt that Japanese cars are "just machines" which runs on 4 wheels with the help of an internal combustion engine, that's about it. I dont like to consider cars as machines which takes me to and fro from work. I sort of want an emotional connect with them. That is what I had with my italian babe - Punto. Even Indian cars like the Storme, Scorpio and XUV evoke that feeling in me. But when I sit in a normal Japanese car (Maruti, Toyota, etc.), I dont feel anything special in it.

I dont have much experience with Hondas, so cant comment on them. Infact I am looking for a used Civic now, but that is for a totally different reason.

Hence, I would always prefer a good Indian product with some niggles over a reliable but boring Japanese product.

 

[Raja]

You are right. The Japs are good in making cars which are reliable, efficient and still cheap to buy (relatively). They are the innovators of manufacturing processes like Kaizen and Just-In-Time.

And also they are quite old in this entire business of making cars relatively compared to tata and mahindra hence have a vast expreince in making cheap , mid level , high level and luxury level cars .

But I have always felt that Japanese cars are "just machines" which runs on 4 wheels with the help of an internal combustion engine, that's about it. I dont like to consider cars as machines which takes me to and fro from work. I sort of want an emotional connect with them. That is what I had with my italian babe - Punto. Even Indian cars like the Storme, Scorpio and XUV evoke that feeling in me. But when I sit in a normal Japanese car (Maruti, Toyota, etc.), I dont feel anything special in it

.
What you are saying is a subjective prefrence , a personal choice , a opinion it is respected and at the same time it dosent prove or validate that if tata and mahindra will charge premium like Toyota and Honda they can make equally reliable cars . Which actually was my post all about if you follow the chain of some last posts from suhas , Superbad , me and then tornado .

. The point tornado raised was that " tata and mahindra can make equally reliable cars if they charge premiuim like Toyota and Honda " .so my response was specific to that point .

and so my point is even if they charge , that reliability may not come ( at this moment atleast ) .

Saying Reliability will be offered by tata and mahindra if they get same premium like Toyota and Honda can be a expectation a wish but its not a guarantee.

Because inspite the Bentley being extremely expensive because of the high premium it charges proves to be relatively least reliable .

You yourself have posted why japnese cars have world wide reliability record much higher compared to their competitors .

It is a blend of expertise followed consistently for years in the process for making cars which has now become a part of their identity and culture .

Mahindra and tata will reach there eventually maybe very soon but at this moment they are not there . And if some 1 like our member suhas , ask us which SUV to buy xuv or storme it is important to make them very clear about the real picture becuase we don't know if they look for emotional attachment with car like you who is ok with niggles or want peace of mind . ( means no unplanned visits to a,s,s for solving niggles ) .

Hence, I would always prefer a good Indian product with some niggles over a reliable but boring Japanese product.

I personally at this very moment atleast will not buy a Innova over a xuv or storme but then its my personal thinking .
But while suggesting something to someone we need to put the facts were they stand today which in return can help them in making a informed decision , help them set reasonable expectations which will eventually lead them to have a better ownership experience of the car they choose .

 

[sarabjeet]

But I have always felt that Japanese cars are "just machines" which runs on 4 wheels with the help of an internal combustion engine, that's about it. I dont like to consider cars as machines which takes me to and fro from work. I sort of want an emotional connect with them. That is what I had with my italian babe - Punto. Even Indian cars like the Storme, Scorpio and XUV evoke that feeling in me. But when I sit in a normal Japanese car (Maruti, Toyota, etc.), I dont feel anything special in it.

absolutely correct. Let me give you another example here. Lets take an Infiniti g37( own one so no biasness) vs Jag XKR ( driven and similar price band)

Sometimes even such high performance Japanese car seems bland and gives you a feeling of being in a simulator. Get in a jag after infiniti and you suddenly realize how a sports car is suppose to feel, wild and untamed.

Well for this experience you do have to pay a higher price and pray for no mechanical failures .

I dont have much experience with Hondas, so cant comment on them. Infact I am looking for a used Civic now, but that is for a totally different reason.

Have owned quite a few civics, word of advice ; please look out for suspension failures. As any civic that has crossed 50k mark is prone to it ( any honda for that matter ). Ohh and they are dirt cheap these days, so look around before shelling money.

 

[navnit013]

@Raj,

I will pick one of your point here. Availability of spare parts. In your case Punto and your uncles case Aria. And in my case my cars BCM.

The dealer wont ship an individual part in, because it will be costly. Last time I wanted a rear fog lamp for my car, it wasnt available at TASC. So I went to the local retailer who supplys TOP (TATA original parts). He called the regional stockist. It wasnt available. They place the order as urgent. I received the part the very next day. It was sent by air cargo courier. AND I had to pay 250 extra.

SO when you are in a TASC, they are business men and are not there for a charity. They are not ready to take that burden. When you escalate the issue, then the company will take note of it and they pay for the transit. It happens usually for those rare cars.

BUT then every manufacturer is on the same page. One of my employees ALTO had a speedo machine problem. It took 3 months to replace.

 

[Gurrala74]

Friends

I do not look this part delay as the manufacturers intentional problem either it is TATA or Mahindra or some body else.

There is something like Fast moving and slow moving spares categories and if the part happens to be of slow moving category then it may take certain amount of time to get it.

In addition to the above they also have something called Stock/Inventory management and everything is driven with that, so if the part is not a regular one then it may take some time.

BUT, at the same time if a part/spare is getting delayed due to the inefficiency of the dealers personal while identifying and ordering the correct one quickly then the same is not acceptable

Since TATA and Mahindra both are Indian manufacturers and all their spare parts are being locally made, so the availability should be quick enough than a foreign player have partial localisation setup in India

 

[Tornado]

@ Raja , Both TATA and mahindrs are cdefinitely capable of providing reliability similar to hondas and toyota , but the customers need to pay charges similar to what hondas and toyota ask for. Irony here is that people pay the premium to foreign co.s without any fuss but when it comes to pay the Indian co. , they start yelling.

Navnit 's experience about the procurement of a spare part tells same thing ( I know it has nothing to do with reliability of a car) he shelled out extra bucks and got the work done in time.

, still tata and mahindra don't have the expreince of Toyota and hondas
rl]

I beg to differ with you , Eg. M & M tried to make a reliable car with monoque tech with safty features like ESP , Airbags etc.

But market research done by them compelled them to price it at much lower price than it could have deserved and they labelled it as ' introductory offer'.They must have got convinced that it is not possible to convince the customers to shell out expected amount for the reliability & goodies of monoque , ESP etc., hence we saw the results , owners had to visit ASS for number of times for brake replacement(similar quality brakes), electronics failure, suspension noise etc. , but (mahindras are better businessesmen than automakers, they know buyers need to spend funds so as to get a reliable car , , they somehow post facto compelled the buyers to shell out the the necessary amount required for reliability , I mean better sales figures = better profit = amount available to make the car reliable )by the time ' introductory offer' had played enough magic , sales figures touched peak in that segment. M & M could gather enough capital to procure better quality brakes and recently they offered free replacement again.

If Indian buyer was so much intrested in reliability, why m & m indulged in cost cutting on brakes and electronic s?

 

[Raja]

Navnit 's experience about the procurement of a spare part tells same thing ( I know it has nothing to do with reliability of a car) he shelled out extra bucks and got the work done in time.


I beg to differ with you , Eg. M & M tried to make a reliable car with monoque tech with safty features like ESP , Airbags etc.

But market research done by them compelled them to price it at much lower price than it could have deserved and they labelled it as ' introductory offer'.They must have got convinced that it is not possible to convince the customers to shell out expected amount for the reliability & goodies of monoque , ESP etc., hence we saw the results , owners had to visit ASS for number of times for brake replacement(similar quality brakes), electronics failure, suspension noise etc. , but (mahindras are better businessesmen than automakers, they know buyers need to spend funds so as to get a reliable car , , they somehow post facto compelled the buyers to shell out the the necessary amount required for reliability , I mean better sales figures = better profit = amount available to make the car reliable )by the time ' introductory offer' had played enough magic , sales figures touched peak in that segment. M & M could gather enough capital to procure better quality brakes and recently they offered free replacement again.

If Indian buyer was so much intrested in reliability, why m & m indulged in cost cutting on brakes and electronic s?

Tornado its is not about money here pls understand . It is about the expertise of the very process required to make reliable cars which is there but not yet matured and it comes out of expreince .
All the problems which you have listed happened because the system is not matured yet . ( example if tata and mahindra have tested their cars for lakhs and lakhs of Kms across the length and breadth of India dint they knew brakes make screeching noise or are ineffective and doors of storme rattle because of hinges ? Or they did testing on premium spares and in the end provided poor spare parts ? )
There is a difference in trying to make a reliable car and actually make one ( applies to both tata and mahindra ). The japanse when relatively compared actualy make one and tata and mahindra try to make one .

 

[Tornado]

Tornado its is not about money ]

It is not about money but it is about how well the money is spent.

All the problems which you have listed happened because the system is not matured yet

Right you are , and this system includes buyers too.

.

example ,if tata and mahindra have tested their cars for lakhs and lakhs of Kms across the length and breadth of India dint they knew brakes make screeching noise or are ineffective and doors of storme rattle because of hinges ? Or they did testing on premium spares and in the end provided poor spare parts ?.

Just lacks and lacks of km is not sufficient.
They have to appoint driver s who has experience of driving SUV s like pajero , fortuner , endy scorpio safari for thousands of km. for the purpose of testing car under reserch.I haven't seen news paper advertisements for such experienced/and well educated / having technically knowledgeable drivers in newspapers from TATAS & mahindras.
They have to pay them accordingly which commensurates with the experience, provide good accommodation , when they are traveling across the country etc. all this needs funds. Funds are spent with free handsonly when the automaker is sure about recovery. So that they can provide expert report to the automaker. If the test driver doesn't know about high standards then how he can report the issues? how well they can be read by the bosses ?

 

[Raja]

It is not about money but it is about how well the money is spent.
Right you are , and this system includes buyers too.

.


Just lacks and lacks of km is not sufficient.
They have to appoint driver s who has experience of driving SUV s like pajero , fortuner , endy scorpio safari for thousands of km. for the purpose of testing car under reserch.I haven't seen news paper advertisements for such experienced/and well educated / having technically knowledgeable drivers in newspapers from TATAS & mahindras.
They have to pay them accordingly which commensurates with the experience, provide good accommodation , when they are traveling across the country etc. all this needs funds. Funds are spent with free handsonly when the automaker is sure about recovery. So that they can provide expert report to the automaker. If the test driver doesn't know about high standards then how he can report the issues? how well they can be read by the bosses ?

I would request you kindly to please read online about the japnese philosophy about car making . Their testing process and everything from desgin to selling and servicing the car.

You can start from here

The just-in-time system is where inventory is delivered based on what's necessary right at that moment, not what's available. Kaizen continues to reform the company's practices by charging every employee -- from the CEO to the janitor -- with continuously improving quality. Rather than waiting for problems to occur, Toyota employees are expected to continually seek improvements in efficiency and quality. If factory workers see a potential problem, they can actually stop work to find a solution, rather than letting the problem grow as production continues. As part of Kaizen, Toyota has quality circles, which are groups of workers who know how the company works, and whose job it is to find areas for improvement, either through cutting waste, changing a process or improving a product

.

HowStuffWorks "The Kaizen Philosophy in the Auto Industry"

And

What is the Philosophy of Kaizen?

Kaizen is a Japanese workplace philosophy which focuses on making continuous small improvements which keep a business at the top of its field. Many well known Japanese companies such as Canon and Toyota use kaizen, with a group approach which includes everyone from CEOs to janitors on the factory floor. This group approach has been adopted successfully in other regions of the world as well, but Japanese workers have refined it to an art form.
It has been suggested that kaizen works particularly well because Japan is a collective culture, and kaizen relies on collective values.

 

[Tornado]

@Raja , is it possible to conclude that following the kaizen philosophy if applied to Storme and XUV won't lead to spending extra funds ?

And many times if not always , I see toyota and hondas don't apply this kaizen philosophy in Indian context(to make the car suitable for Indian conditions) while launching the car in India, they just try to capitalize on image of T badge and H badge in the minds of Indian s to launch their cars Indian buyers respond positive ly without any fuss and pay premium too. If the car doesn't hit the required sales figures then modification s are done to suit Indian conditions.

 

[Raja]

@Raja , is it possible to conclude that following the kaizen philosophy if applied to Storme and XUV won't lead to spending extra funds ?

Tornado I again kindly request you to read what " kaizen philosophy " is actually about .

W.r.t your question read this

Since the start of the industrial revolution, managers of facilities have spent a great deal of time looking for new ways to improve production and decrease costs.

For over 30 years, Kaizen has been one of the more popular and successfully applied management philosophies used to help facilities attain these goals

Since then, the philosophy has helped many Japanese facilities become very successful. Today, Kaizen is helping to increase the profi ts and efficiencies of facilities located all over the world. However, for this to be successful, all employees must embrace the philosophy and be willing to apply its ideals in their work and with coworkers. Implementing Kaizen is likely to change many roles and responsibilities in a facility.Management will begin looking to all employees for ideas to improve a facility. This, in turn, will place greater responsibility on employees to find improvements

.

With every employee looking for ways to make improvements, facilities may see several fundamental benefits. These include:
• Improved productivity
• Improved quality
• Reductions in safety issues
• Quicker deliveries
• Lower costs
• Increased customer satisfaction

Read in detail here please

Kaizen Philosophy - TaskMaster Life & Professional Coaching

And many times if not always , I see toyota and hondas don't apply this kaizen philosophy in Indian context(to make the car suitable for Indian conditions)

What do you mean by this ? Can you explain ?

while launching the car in India, they just try to capitalize on image of T badge and H badge in the minds of Indian s to launch their cars Indian buyers respond positive ly without any fuss and pay premium too.

And what is the image about them in indian minds ? Is the image illusionary or it has some element of truth ?

If the car doesn't hit the required sales figures then modification s are done to suit Indian conditions.

This is business 101 , if one approach dosent work try another .

I suggest you pls read the link I posted you will understand what kaizen is actually . Because we will run in circles otherwise .
If tata and mahindra follow this philosophies I do not know , and even if they follow the Japanese will have a edge since they have been using this practice for many years hence will have a advantage and expreince in implementing them.