My New Honda City in White - The Albus

Essarr · Jun 1, 2015

I have the exact same model as you do (2011 SMT, Mfd.-Apr, Purchased-Oct ). I understand you want to upgrade to alloys wheels now, use the OEM 175 width tyres until it is worn out and then upgrade to 195 width tyres. Right?

This is what I have switched to (when my OEM MRF tyres were at 17K kms):

Wheels: HRS Model H 713 HyperSilver
Size: 6.5J x 15"
PCD (Pitch Circle Diameter): 100 (same as stock wheels)
Offset/ET*: 40 (same as stock wheels)
(or *Einpresstiefe in German or how far away is the center of the width from outside mounting wall - or how far is the wheel going stick out from the hub)
Alloy Wheels Explained - Rimstyle.com
http://www.alloywheelsindia.com/product1/search/558/6/15/18/40/h_713.htm

Tyres: Pirelli P1 Cinturato
Size: 195/60R 15 V88
Tyre Of The Month

The overall diameter of the new 195 tyre is 5.8 mm bigger than the original 175 and ride height is increased by 3mm. These are negligible changes (lesser than the 3% permitted) to make much difference in the speedometer or odometer indications (eg. when speedo reads speeds of 50. 100 and 160 kmph, the actual speeds will be 50, 101 and 141.5 kmph).

A note of warning though: When you eventually upgrade tyres (say, something like Pirelli P1, Michelin ST 3 or Bridgestone Potenza MY-01) belive me, your driving experience will be transformed to a level where you will be wondering why did I stay with those OEM tyres as long as I did, I should have changed tyres when I got the alloys.

Hope you find this information useful.

TAIDhana · Jun 2, 2015

Essarr said:

Very true. It feels like a different car altogether, which is why I advocate to my friends - that tire upgrade should be first thing they should consider before making any cosmetic additions.

Mr.Swamy · Jun 2, 2015

Blimey, like all roads lead to Rome, immediate Driving Experience Improvement for Honda City is upgrade tyres to 195 from 175. For me at least this is like an itch which i cant quite reach, unfortunately for me my car has covered around 19000 kms, Michelin XM stock tyres are in great condition. Looks like they will last at least another 40000 kms. But as I have previously stated somewhere earlier on in the dear Dr.'s Blog, while everything from the stiffish suspension, to space inside, boot space, engine responsiveness (i wish there was more torque though for low speeds) braking etc were as per or better than expectation, the car still felt like it required just that bit more of cushionedness. Logically and as per most of the suggestions online it seems upgrade to 195 is the answer. Essarr does not help my itch with words like '"Originally Posted by Essarr -believe me, your driving experience will be transformed to a level where you will be wondering why did I stay with those OEM tyres as long as I did, I should have changed tyres when I got the alloys."
He's made my itch twitch. Itch can twitch however as principal driver and very happy owner of the car my dearest wife is perfectly satisfied with the car and its handling and will see no reason to spend some moolah on something that is really not required and does not improve mileage. I've just upgraded my Tata Xenon tyres from JK 215 to Michellin LTX AT2 235 /65/16 and now I'm asking her to change her car tyres. Hence unless i spend from my pocket my itch can twitch as much as it wants.

Essarr · Jun 2, 2015

Mr.Swamy said:

I apologize for any rashes caused here. The reality of the matter, tyres don't grow on trees (Or, do they?) and it is perfectly fine to ride the OEMs to their natural death. With just the change from steel rims to alloys, one can expect marginally better steering response due to the reduced un-sprung weight.
The 195/60 days will eventually arrive...!

carazy · Jun 3, 2015

Dr. Mudhan and other member,
Please accept my respect for such an informative thread, I came across this during my random google search and ever since I'm hooked onto your thread. I have lost my sleep at night and you motivated me to join here.
Like you I also own City Ivtech but 2011 model covered 49000 km and still going strong, I'm in love with my city.
Experience sharing during these years:
Replaced tyres at 37000 KM had met with an accident where had tyre burst on left hand side front an year stranded in Delhi-Jaipur highway in the middle on night.
Got Bridgestone Potenza 195/60 R15 as no Turanza or Michelin option was available in Jaipur at that time, satisfied with change in character of the car, quieter ride (to a level where engine noise is now audible), superior and confidence inspiring grip. Should I change my rims ?(I'm confused after previous comments / suggestion)

Recently got my car serviced for 50k KM schedule and first time got my brake shoe replaced.
After 3rd service have been using synthetic oil from Honda and last time tried Mobil 1. Have a question for you is the Idemitsu oil used by Honda is fully synthetic as it turn black like normal mineral oil after 2000 KM and requires same 5000 KM change. I noticed Mobil 1 even after 10000 KM was like still can go on.

As Honda recently announced any time warranty (ATW) for less than 7 year old vehicle I opted for same after thorough inspection by dealership don't know why but I just liked the idea of additional 1 year or 20000 KM warranty.

I wanted to ask about a problem I'm facing recently I noticed a lot of dust in meter console due to some spacing somewhere, should I get i cleared? worried about opening of dash and incorrect fitment may cause rattles and noises.

TAIDhana · Jun 3, 2015

carazy said:

Carazy
Welcome to TAI

BS Turanza and Michelin PLC are touring tires which are meant for comfortable highway cruising. Potenza is also premium tire but it is a high-performance tire which can take lot more beating when compared to the cruisers. Only down side could be tire noise might become audible after 50% of tire life.

Regarding RIMS - as someone else has also pointed out, the change in ride condition will be minimal and will be difficult to notice in normal driving conditions. In my opinion, use of alloy wheels is more for aesthetic reasons and lesser from functionality perspective. IMO, unless you are keen on both you could continue with OEM rims.

Essarr · Jun 3, 2015

TAIDhana said:

Alloy Wheels (aka Magnesium Alloys)
Pros:
- lighter, lesser energy to rotate the wheels than heavier steel rims, perhaps marginally better mileage in stop-and-go traffic.
- reduced un-sprung weight, means better steering response (read as better handling).
- reduced brake fades due to better ventilated design, allows the brakes to cool faster than enclosed steel rim that comes with a few holes.
- looks, may be cosmetic, but better looking and more choice in designs.
Cons:
- expensive, perhaps 2 to 3 times more than an OEM steel rim (A HRS Rs. 6000 upwards per wheel - Momo or BBS much higher).
- more susceptible to damage (bending and cracking), depending on alloy contents some are more tolerant than others.
- a damaged wheel, bent or cracked, cannot be repaired, can only be replaced with a new one.

Steel Wheels
Pros
- less expensive. perhaps a third of the lowest priced alloy of the same size.
- more durable than alloys and long lasting, ideal for off-road and heavy duty vehicles.
- bent or damaged rims can be repaired and re-sprayed.
Cons
- marginally higher fuel consumption at stop-and-go, where higher inertia (torque) is needed to move from stand-still.
- heavy, handling a bit more cumbersome than alloys due to the higher un-sprung weight.
- susceptible to brake fade at constant braking due to poor ventilation for brake cooling (and the fancy plastic wheel covers don't help either)
- slow loss of air in tubeless tyres can happen when a slightly bent rim is not noticed (especially when the damage is on the inner side).
- run-off-the-mill looks.
- prone to rusting if the finish is damaged or wears off.
- some welded or bolted split-rim designs (as opposed to one-piece cold pressed) are not suitable for tubeless tyres due to possible air leakage.

Note: In buying alloy wheels be wary of spurious products on the market, do a little research and find a reputable importer/distributor.

Recommended Brands in India for Honda City: HRS-Taiwan, Freeman Racing, X2 Wheels, OZ Wheels, MOMO-Italy

carazy said:

If you can afford 6.5" alloy (or even steel) rims you should buy them. Ensure that new wheels have the same original PCD and Offset (ET) of the OEM wheels. Reason, the OEM 5.5J rim is the lowest permissible width for a 195 tyre. A 6.5J x 15" rim will also improve the tyres profile for a better contact patch with the road.

TAIDhana · Jun 3, 2015

Essarr said:

LENSO is also good.

All the above points should be true - but my observation is that the difference is only marginal. I had switched from OEM steel wheels to LENSO alloys on my previous car (previous generation Verna CRDI). The benefits like improvement in mileage and handling are only marginal and were hardly noticeable.

quraish786 · Jun 4, 2015

Hey Guys

Sorry have been missing for a while. The thread just gets stronger and stronger with every passing day.

Got a couple of major upgrades done to the car.
Giving their details now..

NEW TYRES - Michelin Primacy 3ST - 195 x 65 x 15

My tyres we stock Goodyear GT3. Road noise was unbearable. Grip was minimum. Probably the worst tyres I have used so far. Only done 17K with another 30k life remaining atleast. (Sold on OLX for 1500/- a tyre or 6000/- for the set)

I spoke to the tyre shop guys (N Mehta, Pune Camp) about the increased size. He had the tyres in stock but was pretty certain they would not fit. He even told me that he would not remove them once I had fitted them. But since I had already researched on the same and thanks to many inputs from this forum I asked him to put them on.

I did have some goosebumps but once they were on they looked beautiful.
Turned the steering from lock to lock and there was enough clearing all around. Phew!! [cheers]

The End Result is unbelievable.

The tyres are Super Silent.
Now I can actually hear the engine growl and nothing else. Which is something I never heard with the old tyres even at low speeds.
Even at highway speeds the noise is down to a bare minimum. Excellent..

Grip levels have gone up quite a few notches. No more tyre squeals on fast accelerations / hard cornerings..
Hard cornering has no major side drift and the car stays planted like it is on rails. I have a bit of racing experience and I can rally throw the car around fast bends. You really have to experience the change to know what I am talking about.

Comfort levels - Unbelievable.
On the old set the car used to bounce on speed breakers and the occupants could feel every bump on a bad road.
The Michelin Primacy 3ST cushioning (thanks to the 65 profile tyres) are excellent. I can even afford to ignore a few of the smaller breakers [;)]

Rolling resistance is down a little bit but not too noticable. As for Life of the soft compund I have driven it on smooth road, bad roads, no roads at all, hit a couple of deep potholes but (touch wood) the tyre looks just as new.
Anyways I drive a car about 40k at max before changing it so I don't need a tyre that would lasts me 60K kilometers. Comfort and Road noise are my primary deciding factors.

Anyone looking to upgrade - Micheling Primacy 3ST is the way to go (even in India conditions).

Also go inf or the 65 profile tyres. Don't worry about the statistical high percentage of change in the size of the tyre diameter as compared to stock. The wheel wells on our City are well equipped to handle them.

The increase in comfort is quite noticeable.

Take my word - Choose the 65 profile and you will love it.

Also after the larger profile tyres the On Board Fuel Efficiency figures are more accurate. At first it was well on the higher side, post upgrade it is just a couple of percentage on the lower side. Overall fuel efficiency has not changed much. I have a professional always connected OBD 2 gauge which can be calibrated so the results are quite accurate.

I get an average of about 13 kmpl on my automatic city with a mixture of highway and city driving. The OBD gauge plays in a major role in this.
I do use quite a bit of hypermilling techniques and can get about 19kmpl on my highway drives from Pune - Mumbai.

quraish786 · Jun 4, 2015

The Next one was the one I was the most Exited about

LED 2S Headlights

I really don't know how to sum this up. It is kind of a Hit and Miss

I love the colour. 5000K is the exact shade I was looking for.

They claim 3600 Lm per bulb which should be great but I really don't think I am getting the desired result.

The low Beam is great. Nice 180 degree spread and good illumination.

The High beam kind of gets scattered. It says 360 degree beam and unfortunately it is actually that. It goes all 360 degrees rather than straight ahead on the road. (Attaching some pics for reference.)

Maybe projectors are what are what is required to manage the beam angle.

Will give that a shot and see how they work out.

Image 1. - Difference between 5000K on the Headlight and 6000K on the Parking Light
Image 2. & 3. - Low Beam Shots
Image 4. & 6. - High Beam Shots

Mr.Swamy · Jun 4, 2015

I do use quite a bit of hypermilling techniques and can get about 19kmpl on my highway drives from Pune - Mumbai.
__________________
Regards
Quraish Umrethi - Pune

Quarish thanks for introducing me to the 'hypermilling' term. Since you too have an auto, this is a question that's been in my head and i did not know how to ask. Well initially to get a higher FE especially on long trips say bangalore Goa, I used to take the car gently to high speeds like 150 kms/hr and then shift into neutral and let it roll till it came down to 90 and again do the same and same. This technique brought me about 16-17 kms/ litre, but it was a bit tiring I could do it only for about 2 hours and get tired of it. I used to do it in the city too at much lower speeds until a thought popped in my head that I was somehow damaging the automatic gear box. I've stopped it since then and use a lighter foot now. But does this technique cause long term wear and tear to the auto gear box is my qs?

carazy · Jun 5, 2015

@TAIDhana
Ah is it the case? Then the tyres are blessing in disguise as I happen to travel a lot on unpaved or rough roads and even Delhi-Jaipur highway docent seems to be progressing since ages. Michelin was my first choice but when "Beggars are not the choosers" I had to accept what was on offer.

@Essarr
Point noted and shall upgrade as and when budget permits till then my stock alloys should perform the duty but after tyre change have really noticed the change in character in terms of handling.

@quraish786
I agree with you for the change of character as I too had those Good years as stock.
Surprisingly I have not notices any drop in economy figures as I drive with light foot with occasional sprints. For the light bulbs thats a necessary upgrade I'm looking forward to as I tend to be on highways during late night and on lonely stretch the beams seems inadequate. Did you happen to try Nightbreakers or similar product? I want opinion on the throw and amount of heat produced (is it at par to stock bulbs?)

@ Mr.Swamy
I found a link might be it may serve any purpose If You Shift an Automatic While Driving, Will You Damage Your Engine?
but what I have noticed during driving new city with cruise control is that FE numbers are very encouraging when you are driving at constant speeds and also that way you are not stressing your engine.
I happen to manage 19.8KMPL during my run from Delhi to Udaipur with speed varying from 80 to 95. On this 730 KM stretch for almost 12 hours I never turned off the AC Never stopped the engine even during pee breaks or refills at petrol stations. On the other hand even with my best intentions managed to get FE of above 14 KMPL during my Himalayan expeditions. Have intensively tested my City in Summers, Winters, Rains, Snow, plain and mountains.

Essarr · Jun 5, 2015

quraish786 said:

Great posts.

About 195/65 Primacy 3 ST upgrade, yes it is bound to be ultra quite and all the other things you describe, except one thing. Testing to see if the the larger tyre is fouling (or rubbing against) anywhere inside the wheel arch, including body and related suspension components, cannot be done on a parked car and just with the front wheels. It has to done under real life driving conditions on all four corners where shock's compression comes into play under heavy braking, or accelerated hill climb on ghat road, rear end bottoming at speed-beakers or potholes on a fully loaded car. A good garage should be able simulate those conditions by manually compressing shocks to their max to see if any fouling is going on (yes, I asked my garage do these thing before OK-ing 195/60/15 Pirelli's just because there was not much data or feed backs available.) These are the numbers, if you are interested:

175/65R 15 = Dia 609mm, Sidewall 114mm - (stock)
195/65R 15 = Dia 634mm, Sidewall 127mm - Change +4.11% - (above the recommended 3%)
195/60R 15 = Dia 615mm, Sidewall 117mm - Change +2.86%
185/55R 16 = Dia 610mm, Sidewall 102mm - Change +0.62% - (stock tyre for ANHC in other markets like UAE, Far East, Australia)

I have to say that the quality of light from those LED H4 is wonderful. But the beam pattern, both low and high, is bound to get cars coming in opposite direction flashing or switching on to their high beam. It does not even seem to have a basic cut-off pattern to protect oncoming traffic from being blinded. (I have seen "HORNS OK PLEASE" on the back of the trucks, but soon they will adding 'LIGHTS NOT OK, PLEASE" to that..!)

Your car is bound to fail the yearly vehicle inspection test conducted in most countries (like MOT-UK, DOT-US, JKT-Japan, etc.) for road-worthiness. But you're in India!

One good thing though, many, including me, are going to appreciate your photos because it will be a deciding factor for anyone still sitting on fence about switching to LED lights. Thanks.

gdave · Jun 5, 2015

Essarr said:

Dear Essaarr,

You read my mind. [:)]

this is what I was looking for. Thank you very much.
As I was going through some of the alloy web site, i came to know about a brand Plati. is it good?

My budget is limited to maximum 25k for the alloys.

and I have a white Honda city so I like to have black/grey alloy like this one

Plati Alloy Wheels | Plati Alloys Wheels | Alloy wheel India

but the ET is mentioned as ET30 where the OEM spec is ET40.

is there any problem?

can you suggest some other brands?

Essarr · Jun 6, 2015

gdave said:

Sorry, I cannot say anything positive or negative about Plati alloy wheels simply because I have not come acoss them. Two things I can say though, one, the rim that you have shown interest in (PR-1410) is not a direct fit for Honda City 2011 because the Offset is too short (ET30) and the Centre Bore dia (CB 67.1) is bigger than ANHC's hub CB of 56.1 mm. Two, I don't see any standards of approval on Plati's website, like certifications from TUV, JAA, ISO, etc. That will be a deterrent for me to buy something from there. So, look for quality assurance certification from any manufacturer because wheels and tyres are critical safety components as far as I am concered.

I have used quite a few alloy wheels between 1979 and 1995. I will approve all them, but they are very expensive and may not have a suitable size for ANHC. These, in progressive order of upgrades are, Alpina, BMW factory alloys, Borbet and last and the best BBS (two sets because one set was stolen). In India my research led me to HRS of Taiwan, who happen have a very decent reputation for quality and reasonable prices. I have not put enough mileage on them to say, close your eyes and buy them. I have earlier mentioned a few brands, brands that I only know from friends and my garage: HRS-Taiwan, Freeman Racing, X2 Wheels, OZ Wheels, MOMO-Italy.

These are the 3 important number you have to hold on to when replacing same diameter wheels with alloys (15") in ANHC (2002 to 2013):

1. PCD : 100 mm / 4 Holes (any deviation here and the wheel WILL NOT FIT).

2. Offset (ET): positive 48 mm* (up to +/- 3% will show no undesired effect)

Note 1 : Offset is based on the rim width, wider the rim lesser the Offset in order to maintain the same or similar profile in relation to the wheel arch profile (so that it does not jut outside the car). I cannot find the specs provided by Honda India. This is a number (+48*) I got from Australian blogs and wheel dealers as OEM and probably refers to 185/55R15 on 5.5J width wheels.

Note 2 : In selecting a wheel with lesser positive offset, one can increase it to the desired level by bolting on a spacer between the alloy wheel and wheel mount hub. Say, if you get a wheel with ET32 offset, then a 6mm to 8mm spacer will bring the wheel out to desired factory settings. Same diameter alloy rim with ET45 will protrude outside by 7mm and nothing can be done to reduce it to factory level. Too much of a wheel/tyre protrusion outside the wheel arch can be DANGEROUS. Such car-model-specific spacers to increase the ET may be available with better wheel/tyre dealers.

Note 3: My HRS alloys specs are 15 x 6,5J, ET+40 and CB 56.1mm with 195/60R15 tyres. Yes it is slightly more outward than stock, but the wheel and tyre combo does not protrude one bit out side the profile of the wheel arches.

3. CB (Centre Bore diameter): 56.1 mm (+1% tolerance may be acceptable. Smaller, it won't fit).

Note 4 : This is the diameter of the hole on the alloy wheel which is inserted into the wheel axle hub.

Note 5 : Similar to the ET offset spacer, a hub ring spacer may be commercially available if the CB diameter is larger than specs (56.1 mm).

Note 6 : Car specific ET spacers will have this dimension incorporated. If a custom made spacer has to manufactured at a local mechanical machine-shop lathe, then this dimensions have to be provided. (I wouldn't take this course)

My New Honda City in White - The Albus

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