High End Air Filters - Are They Really Worth It?

[jayadev]

We are here to just educate people about the reality of high flow filters.

You are educating only one thing since beginning that stock Air filters (paper filters) are pefect and rest are not so good.. (typical one side story) !
that is why I believe tasuray has come up with some confusion.

What is the validity of "Air Filtration Test" the link you have provided ?

"I have a degree in mechanical engineering and am currently pursuing a master's in engineering management."-does not prove what ever he conclude is truth to write automotive gospel.

I wish you could come up with real life test and situation to educate people rather than lab test or controlled simulation.

Take a look at the header Sir, you will see this is a discussion.

"Are They Really Worth It?"
On a first note ,this header itself is very much depressing ,as if lot of failures has been observed with high end filter usage .
one shouldn't dismiss emotional drag of a statement, or should we ?

it should have been "pros and cons of high end filter vs stock filters" as the way thread is.

 

[jarpickle]

Why not conduct a test yourself and prove to us that the stock replacement filter and or high performance filters are better at filtration than the stock filter.

This is not a one sided story.

I am not asking anyone to stay away from the filters.

Yes the header is a question, a stock filter costs Rs150 for my 800 a K&N stock replacement filter costs Rs3500.I know its reusable.But the recharger kit also comes at a premium price.

Is it worth spending a premium price and compromising on filtration, the basic job of an automotive filter.

In dusty environs like ours, filtration is most essential.Is it not?

I am not condoning the use of performance filters.I just believe they are best suited for track events.Not for everyday use.

It is for each individual to decide what they want to do.

Please let the people decide what they want to do after reading the initial test that was posted.It is not the absolute benchmark and the tester himself has admitted it.It is just conveying what has been observed by them.

I am posting it here to it can help people make better decisions.

Paper filters do have their own problems, like you said humidity and moisture are bad for paper.

Its not the absolute best,but dont you think manufacturers would have spend millions on R&D to determine what would work best in terms of filtration and airflow.

 

[jayadev]

Why not conduct a test yourself and prove to us that the stock replacement filter and or high performance filters are better at filtration than the stock filter.

if you are ready to provide monetary support I will do that gladly I am a hardcore DIY'er but poverty stricken..now dont say that you cant coz it was just a proposal.

This is not a one sided story.

I am not asking anyone to stay away from the filters.

Yes the header is a question, a stock filter costs Rs150 for my 800 a K&N stock replacement filter costs Rs3500.I know its reusable.But the recharger kit also comes at a premium price.

Nothing comes free of cost . the extra price would be contributed by many factors like as u said "manufacturers would have spend millions on R&D to determine"

Is it worth spending a premium price and compromising on filtration, the basic job of an automotive filter.in dusty environs like ours, filtration is most essential.Is it not?
I am not condoning the use of performance filters.I just believe they are best suited for track events.Not for everyday use.

It is for each individual to decide what they want to do.

Now you are talking.
When you are playing around with with some performance mod you cant get anywhere with regular paper filter, better performance not only mean race track. for me higher fuel efficiency,better rev quality ,better pickup is also included in performance. so we should not be dismissing a filter to a narrow field of usage. I am noway a racer but I wish my car responds well with a tap on pedal .

Please let the people decide what they want to do after reading the initial test that was posted.It is not the absolute benchmark and the tester himself has admitted it.It is just conveying what has been observed by them.

Yes ,I agree it was his opinion . but you should not be educating people with some else's opinion.dont you think so ?

I am posting it here to it can help people make better decisions.

Paper filters do have their own problems, like you said humidity and moisture are bad for paper.

When i first noted the the thread I expected some failure,or pics or long run reviews but I was disappointed to see all opinions and theories.

Its not the absolute best,but dont you think manufacturers would have spend millions on R&D to determine what would work best in terms of filtration and airflow.

We have absolutely no idea but an imaginary picture how manufacture spend on RnD's or did they ever spend anything on Air filter RnD or just borrowed not so bad filter from some vendor and optimized the engine.
Generally when components fail they recall otherwise we live with it.manufacturers are not God. agreed they manufactured the vehicle, but there should be someone out there who know better than the engineer in plant did.

most of the car manufacturers recommends as well as authorize after market filters, though as a rule of thumb they advice to stick with oem to be safe.
e.g Fiat recommends BMC filters and I have heard they are far better than stock ones..

 

[nozzlering]

This discussion has taken the direction which is going nowhere. Being adamant serves no purpose.
High end filters are for a specific purpose, used by specific set of people, under specific circumstances.Here, the primary motive is to achieve maximum performance ( fuel efficiency, life of engine, etc are not important). And some of the enthusiasts also encorporate these filters in there daily use drive, after proper research, calculations. Unfortunately majority of people blindly go for such mods, ultimately screwing up their drive. Also, for daily use, for majority of the people, changing to high end filter doesn't serve the purpose. IMO, Mr jarpickle aims to enlighten these people and is trying to help them in taking wise decision.
Coming to stock filters, the car manufacturers choose them after doing extensive R&D. And this R&D considers the masses, people who would be using the cars for their daily use, travel in city, highways, under different climatic conditions (not only humid conditions, as in case of Mr Jayadev). And they have zeroed in to paper filters.
Yes high end filters help you achieve higher performance, but at a premium, also they cost more.
I hope people must have known the pros and cons of high end filters. So before going for them, they would definitely ask themselves, "Are they really worth it?" We should thank jarpickle for putting up this question.

And jayadev this discussion is of no use for you. You have decided that there are no cons in high end filters. It seems you already have installed those filters. If not then please get those filters ASAP.

 

[jayadev]

And jayadev this discussion is of no use for you. You have decided that there are no cons in high end filters. It seems you already have installed those filters. If not then please get those filters ASAP.

Are you going back to square one ? "ASAP" does point to that does'nt it ?

My car still runs on stock filter and I feel it is not serving any good either. so definitely I am looking forward for an alternative which would be beneficial.

Now this is pessimistic idea to discourage anybody at first step that there exist nothing better than stock filter .alright maybe you guys had your share of experience that using high performance filter killed your engine ,then you should put it in convincing manner.
not just put forward on basis of assumptions and calculations.

from very first query my questions were either ignored cleverly or returned with sarcastic replies.

I said what if the fibre pores were made smaller than paper filters.
Jarpickle simply refused to acknowledge the logic behind it and said the air flow will be restricted. I expected in obvious way that it would be taken in positive manner , that "what if paper and fibre filters had same size micro pores"

similarly he gave a remark that metal debris inside the engine is not as harmful as dust particles escaping the airfilter because "metal" is safe due to lubrication-again I found it to be wierd logic but may oil is suited for metal only.


"Are they really worth it ?"- that is where myself interested too .but the progression of thread made me feel it is all going one sided saying "high end filters are worthless" if not in race track, which I fail to understand why.

Jarpickle has been coming up with some assumptions and opinions about millions and Rnd's but I could not find them to be convincing or factual .

I am not a hi-fi engineer in automotive sector..

Now you can say "And jayadev this discussion is of no use for you."- I would not come here again.good bye.

 

[nozzlering]

Negativity creates negativity. Point of discussion has been, "Is it worth spending lots of money, when the job is done by paying so much less? And you have always taken it in a way that we're against high end filters.
jarpickle replied to your query (if fibre pores were made smaller than paper). Then the advantage of excess flow of air is gone!!
And I am totally with you on the metal debris part of discussion.
Majority of people assume that high end filters considerably increase the performance and power output, which is not correct. And people are ready to pay much more than the stock filter. The discussion is here to break the myth. No miracle is to be expected. A lot has to be done in addition to changing the filters.
Even I am not a hi-fi automotive engineer. Though I have been working for last 9 years on slightly bigger diesel engines. Have seen quite a lot, yet so much is left to learn. Everyone has his own experience, and we are here to share.
This place belongs to no one of us. Its completely your choice to come or not come.

 

[jarpickle]

If fiber pores are made smaller in comparision to a paper filter don't you think this particular kind of filter would be more restrictive.It would certainly starve the engine of the needed air flow.

If the were to be made of the same size microns, don't you think the mass public would be in favor of the cheaper paper filters and not the fiber ones since they would still be selling at a premium price and not at the same price point as a paper filter.Also add the cost of their recharger kits.

I was talking about lubrication system in engines referring to your very first post in this discussion where you pointed out that water is also serious issue in engine and the worst one is metal debris from the cranks and gears.Engine oil and gear oil are used to reduce metal to metal friction that is caused inside an engine and gearbox.Due to improper lubrication in the gearbox or engine.

I also answered your question about the ecu having to be caliberated to cope with the increased air flow from a performance filter.This is true.Older cars with a carb can be adjusted with a simple turn of a screw to get the desired air fuel mixture.New cars with ecu's this job is rather complex.

We have not overlooked anything.If you read our comments fully you will see that we been discussing all the points you have pointed out before.

If you see the post that Prads has made on page 2 you will find some excellent first hand observations made by him on performance filters.

If I had the monetary resources to conduct the test myself it would have been already posted here.

Better pickup is associated with a lot of things.Are you TDI injector nozzles supplying fuel at optimum pressure and are consistent flow rates.Have you changed the fuel filter, with the quality of fuel at the pump stations here the fuel filter needs to be changed at lower intervals as they get clogged.Clean your airfilter by spraying some air.Suzuki recommends this in their workshop manual for the 800.Check your manual.Try using fuel system additives like 3m.These clean your fuel system and injectors.Check if a similar product is made for diesel cars.

 

[jarpickle]

As far as assumptions go, do you have any proof other than the K&N website that fiber filters are better than stock.As far as we can see you are also expressing an opinion based on the knowledge you have acquired by reading the good that fiber filters are doing from their website.

That test on the link I have provided was done by an unbiased party, hence its views are of some value.Its not the absolute benchmark.Atleast until someone sponsors a test that can be conducted here let people use it to gain some insight as to what exactly a performance filter does.They have also tested the flow rate to show which filter is a better flowing one as well.

Coming back to filtration, lets say a performance filter which is going to last the lifetime of the car and filters within 99.9% of the stock filter people might think 0.1% isn't going to do much harm.But over the lifetime of the vehicle and the amount of kms it runs it will surely be detrimental.Also if you read what Prads pointed out in his comment on page 2 is that once the filter was washed and the recharger oil was used it didn't behave the same way it did when it was new.Also the recharger oil is known to foul up the mass air flow sensor in modern cars if the oil drips onto them.Hence care must be taken to use that oil at the right quantity and dry it till the oil stops dripping.

The main point of this discussion is to help the people make an informed decision when choosing a performance filter knowing exactly what it does in terms of filtration and flow rate rather than blindfolded just because someone else uses it.A stock replacement filter albeit drop in does need to be serviced later on.We are just helping folks get all their ducks in a row when it comes to filters.The header was is not stock vs performance because there are a lot of posts regarding that already.

Also will the A.S.S person give in writing that the K&N filter will not void warranty?If a performance filter is recommended by the manufacturer and specified in black and white in their manual or other literature that came with your car they can't dismiss if anything were to happen with its use.Word of mouth holds no legal value.

A lot of people wait for their warranty periods to get over before adding a stock replacement filter/high performance filter and other mods to their cars.

I know even a strut bar that I fitted in my 15 year old 800 caused quite a stir at the A.S.S when it came to warranty of the parts that the strut bar would work in tandem with.

Mr Jayadev you are more than welcome to be a part of this discussion.

Lets keep this discussion respectable.Lets drop the verbal insults.This is a forum and hence lets keep this a healthy discussion.

I think it would be better off from here on out if people specified here what filters they are using and what was recommended by the manufacturer.

My 800 came with a paper filter, the Mgp ones are varied.The very first one was a Purolator so I have stuck with Purolator ever since.I clean it (spray air)every 1500 kms change every 5000-6000 Kms when I change all the fluids and do a general inspection of various parts like brakes,rubber boots,hoses etc.

 

[Prads]

Well for those who want performance from K&N not all hope is lost(thanks to our dusty conditions.)

Back in 2005/2006 i had visited "Methods" office here in Bangalore,as many mite know they are the ones who brought K&N,Remus exhaust,Koni suspension etc to Indian consumers.
I had visited them as a friend wanted to set up an accessories business up North & i was curious myself,they gave me a California USA brochure which i just looked into again now as i realized somethings were missing on our filters here(wanted to mention this many times but forgot about it).
But the brochure reads they managed 13 Hp from a 2003 Cadillac Escalade which has a V8 engine of 6000cc,its called a 77series with metal intake kit(they cant bluff to USA consumers right?cos they sue like crazy[thinking]),but this should give some proof to our Indian consumers who run 1100cc to 2400cc engines (without any other mods)with performance filters on what to expect,not to mention our excellent fuel quality.


But two things caught my attention in the brochure are(I am writing below what is written in the brochure)

Precharger -K&N Precharger are specially designed filter wraps made to extend the service interval of your K&N filter when used in very dusty conditions.They are made from durable polyester material containing uniform micron openings.The Precharger will stop small dirt particles,yet add little restriction to the airflow of the filter.The precharger is designed to be run dry & can be cleaned with K&n filter cleaner.The precharger is custom made to fit each application.Double stitched openings assure that the precharger will stay in place.The precharger is available in a variety of colours.

I think we need this most in India,but as far as i am aware they were not providing this.We need such kind of airfilter covers
(Writing below again whats there in the brochure)

Drycharger- K&N Drycharger are manufactured from a durable polyester material & are pretreated with a proprietary hydrophobic process designed to prevent splashes of water or mud from saturating your K&n air filter.The drycharger will also stop small dirt particles,yet add little restriction to the airflow of the filter.

I think our Indian cars will need this for sure especially since i feel Cold air intakes can improve our crdi diesel engines.



If you guys feel i should post pics of the small 18 page brochure,would do so,cos i really cant type the whole thing ,it has some pics of the airfilters etc.

 

[nozzlering]

Please Prads. That would be helpful for all of us.

 

[jarpickle]

But with a cover over the filter the high flow which they are known for is compromised isn't.

Also the prechargers and drycharger are applicable to conical and custom filters not the stock replacement filters aren't they.

Please shed some more light on the subject.

 

[Prads]

But with a cover over the filter the high flow which they are known for is compromised isn't.

Also the prechargers and drycharger are applicable to conical and custom filters not the stock replacement filters aren't they.

Please shed some more light on the subject.

Ya those covers are for high flow performance filters,even K&N does not claim performance increase legally in the stock replacement filters by showing examples,it is just an assumption made by consumers cos it says designed to increase horsepower & acceleration but they dont give examples or figures like for there other filters,

they say the oe replacement filters can be reused numerous times with long cleaning intervals unlike the performance filters which needs to be cleaned quite frequently in comparison,so K&N claims increase only in the performance filter types with examples.

Now that we have reached the conclusion that the performance upgrade filters need constant cleaning (as also pointed out by me in my friends Zen & a friends Hayabusa) especially in our Indian conditions i think the Precharger will be helpful in delaying the clogging while provide little restriction
& the drycharger will be most welcome on the cold air intakes without a doubt which should do best for the Crdi diesels flooding our roads.

Most of the people abroad go for replacement filters (they are available in diff sizes)cos changing filters on there cars are pain & constant changing adds huge labour bills to there service,for example i remember reading about a Maserati owner saying that the car had to be lifted up & parts removed on the car for the airfilter to be changed quite frequently so he went for the replacement filters for longer change intervals & to reduce chances of mechanics fiddling under the hood for little reasons & save huge service bills.


Now lets us keep in mind here in India Aftermarket exhausts are illegal & you wont get emission clearance,so what does one do if he/she is burning expensive petrol & wants a vocal tone for his/her ride?
Obvious safe option will be the performance filters which produce vocal intake sound ,so when you add the Precharger cover & increase the cleaning intervals you are ensuring the intake sound stays longer with small improvements in filtration.

But there are some airfilters which my friends have used & felt they are bad for India like the HKS & Apexi,so K&N is a better bet in there view.

If one is a performance junky and has exhaust mods,forced induction engine or mods then there will be better performance from these filters i feel.

 

[jarpickle]

Isn't the precharger restricting some of the airflow?

 

[Prads]

Isn't the precharger restricting some of the airflow?

Well i have not spoken to anyone(down to earth person atleast) using it so cant really comment with certainty,but i do remember seeing a drag strip Yamaha rx100/135 having one(could be a drycharger also).
But common sense should point to that it will restrict to a certain extent,but its an option provided to people who feel there cars will be getting clogged in dusty conditions quite often than they want.
Its like one must compromise on visual levels of there car windows to cut down heat.

 

[jarpickle]

This is still very much a grey area.

Its good that when it comes to filters new things are on the market and a lot of players are entering the scene with a slew of new products.

What kind of filter do you use?What was recommended by the car manufacturer.Please specify.Thanks