Ban all Old Polluting Vehicles or Not?

[Markiv]

Ban all old vehicles because they pollute more?*

It is a well known fact that all old vehicles (20- 25 -30years old) whether commercial or private emit more smoke, give less mileage and are not Eco friendly. So, they should be banned is the unanimous cry of many people. They have nothing against the owners of these vehicles except the fact that they are not Eco friendly, that's all.

A deeper look into the issue throws up some interesting topics to ponder:

The central and state governments are happy to implement ,because if new cars come to the market, they gain excise duty, sales tax, road tax and so many other taxes.The automotive companies are happy they get more sales and profits.Banks are happy, they lend more. The insurance companies are happy. Stock markets are happy.All these powerful people create a media hype and sway the common man's mind to support this cause.

Let's look at it alternatively,

Suppose we do scrap around 2 lakh old vehicles in this country because they pollute more. And all these guys buy 2 lakh new vehicles, what would be the pollution caused by factories to produce this many vehicles. (industrial pollution to produce this many cars is much more than what these cars pollute).

These old vehicles belong to someone in our country not because he loves to drive those vehicles, but only because he can't afford a new one. Shouldn't we consider that? It's usually his bread and butter.

These old vehicles generally are not capable of doing thousands of kilometers every month unlike a new vehicle. They drive much lesser per month. Aren't they likely to emit lesser CO2?

Should'nt we look at other ways of reducing pollution?

Please post your thoughts on this subject.
**
Bye * * *

 

[jayadev]

It is a well known fact that all old vehicles (20- 25 -30years old) whether commercial or private emit more smoke, give less mileage and are not Eco friendly. So, they should be banned is the unanimous cry of many people. They have nothing against the owners of these vehicles except the fact that they are not Eco friendly, that's all.

I wonder Why we in India wants to behave outrageous rather than sensible and economical?

A 380hp BMW will pollute more than a mini truck. so what would you suggest ban BMW?

any old vehicles can be restored to make it run like a normal ones which would emit within norms.

There are many many ways to reduce the emission in any vehicle additional fitments ,retuning ,using convertor and what not ?

What should be sorted is, make the pollution control stricter .

 

[Vishwas]

I wonder Why we in India wants to behave outrageous rather than sensible and economical?

Very valid point.It's because of the HI-FI attitude.

any old vehicles can be restored to make it run like a normal ones which would emit within norms.

If this had been done by everybody in our country, then the vehicle population would have been less.

There are many many ways to reduce the emission in any vehicle additional fitments ,retuning ,using convertor and what not ?

Even fitting new reliable engines can be brought in,Yes i know some will disagree but this will reduce pollution levels

 

[cooldhaya]

I think this will be too harsh on the owners and forcing them to upgrade! I personally know many people who hold on to old cars because they just love their old too much and just can't sell it no matter what! This would be tough for those kind of people.


I think these old vehicles will be having valid FC from RTO and also also proper emission test reports can be done to make sure they are within the permissible levels.


Though i don't have a direct bearing on this topic i still feel it's too harsh on those owners.

 

[ilango[speed thirst]]

It means i need to scrap my sierra!! that is really bad

its running on 14th year and just one more year to complete.
i need to take a fitness certificate from rto , valid for another 5 year.

Accept pollution level are under control with bharat 2,3,4. etc.

Something like kits can be sold/made compulsory to be fitted in exhaust so that the waste gases are treated kind of. Just a suggesion , no perfect idea!


Old cars are phasing out silently , its not car alone that pollutes much!

 

[ramG]

Ban all old vehicles because they pollute more?*

It is a well known fact that all old vehicles (20- 25 -30years old) whether commercial or private emit more smoke, give less mileage and are not Eco friendly. So, they should be banned is the unanimous cry of many people. They have nothing against the owners of these vehicles except the fact that they are not Eco friendly, that's all.
......................

A completely different perspective. Nice...

I would also like to highlight a different angle - the angle of safety. All these old vehicles on our roads are not very safe I would say. Most of these do not have a very effective braking or steering system. Remember the old Ambys & M800s? They did not even have seat belts and no power brake, no power steering, pathetic lighting in addition to a very poor electrical wiring system which is prone to faults.

Although these old vehicles should not be banned completely on our roads, but the owners should definitely be encouraged to upgrade to much advanced, efficient and safe vehicles of modern times.

All those 2 stroke bikes however should definitely be banned. They not only pollute the environment, they also encourage dangerous 'gymnastics' on the roads. (I see so may Rx 100 & Samurai bikers doing wheelies & other stunts here on Bangalore roads)

 

[arungn]

If my 14 year old car can give 17kmpl and a brand new car gives 17kmpl both of them burn fuel at the same rate and so pollution levels should be the same, okay there may be a slight change in emissions owing to a newer design catcon. And a thorough overhaul can make them perform as good as new, as in better acceleration and low nvh.

Apart from that if a new gen car can be extremely eficient, ppl will only try to travel more owing to great economy and thus fuel consumption and emission rises.

As for safety, car companies use or lower quality stuff these days compared to the oldies. 20yo marutis have been running around flawlessly while brand new ventos and nanos burst in flames. Jap cars were always made with thinner sheetmetal than their eu counterparts. Indigenous spares quality standards are coming down by the day.

IMHO Engine swapping should be legal in this country.

 

[ramG]

If my 14 year old car can give 17kmpl and a brand new car gives 17kmpl both of them burn fuel at the same rate and so pollution levels should be the same, okay there may be a slight change in emissions owing to a newer design catcon. And a thorough overhaul can make them perform as good as new, as in better acceleration and low nvh.

Very nicely maintained car... Wish everyone could maintain a car like that...

I have myself driven Amby Mark 2 and the old Japanese M800 for more than 10 years. Build quality - hats off; nothing like the good old Amby. It felt like a tank. Used to give 10 kmpl @ 20 Rs per litre (the good old nineties). However on the safety front I still feel those cars lack a lot. In an unfortunate event, build quality is good for you but not for others out there on the road.

What do you think of those 20-25 year old trucks and buses roaming our highways without even a handbrake?

IMHO Engine swapping should be legal in this country.

This would give quite interesting results...

 

[jayadev]

They not only pollute the environment, they also encourage dangerous 'gymnastics' on the roads. (I see so may Rx 100 & Samurai bikers doing wheelies & other stunts here on Bangalore roads)v

Not only Rx100 I have seen heavily modified brand new r15,Bajaj pulsar ,doing reckless gymnastics, burning rubber,heavy smoke from exhaust tip,noise..this all adds polluting environment.

What about those drivers who have problems with eyesight,colour blindness ,high and low blood pressure issue,fatigue syndrome,heart related illness and other types of illness whom are not at all suppose to drive.

Why only put the blame on one side ? a machine is a machine it only acts as per drivers command. a well maintained machine will deliver efficiently and effectively.

They did not even have seat belts and no power brake, no power steering, pathetic lighting in addition to a very poor electrical wiring system which is prone to faults.

This does not demand ban every old car deemed necessary but punishing the owner is what is require.

I had a 20 year old hero cycle which had better brakes and metal than any brand new bicycle . it did not happen on its own but I would do the maintenance and change the worn out or damaged part periodically.

 

[Prads]

Well if the car or any vehicle is maintained well & is in good condition i think it can be run & an exception made,but some vehicles are really a road hazard,

An incident that happened around a week back this "Fiat premier ne 118" entered a road junction in which i was ,he narrowly missed a two wheeler(who usually expects the car will stop) & comes straight into my car,by now i realized he has no brakes & he stops just before hitting my car & stalls it(his head lights went off) & he stares at my car as if its my fault(he could not see me obviously cos of tint),i am guessing its around a 1992 model & such cars are not only polluting but a hazard to road users,they are ignored beyond belief,compare that to a loving owned Yamaha Rd 350 from 1985 we realize its wrong to judge there road worthiness on age.

Like the Fiat 118 i mentioned you will find Maruti 1000(some emitting alot of white smoke),old Hyundai accents & santros even,if a ban has to be imposed based on age i feel other things like emission & road worthiness have to made on the vehicle before writing it off!

 

[P3T3R]

Ban all old vehicles because they pollute more?*

It is a well known fact that all old vehicles (20- 25 -30years old) whether commercial or private emit more smoke, give less mileage and are not Eco friendly.

Not emitting smoke does not mean no pollution. The most dangerous gasses are colourless. The colourless fumes of a petrol vehicle are more polluting than the black smoke from a Diesel vehicle.
FYI, the newer cars give lesser milege than the newer ones. Just compare a Euro-I & Euro-III Maruti 800.

Suppose we do scrap around 2 lakh old vehicles in this country because they pollute more.

A well maintained 2 L old engine will pollute less than a badly maintained 50K vehicle.

A 380hp BMW will pollute more than a mini truck. so what would you suggest ban BMW?

Even a 380 BHP BMW has to comply with the emission norms.

A completely different perspective. Nice...

I would also like to highlight a different angle - the angle of safety. All these old vehicles on our roads are not very safe I would say. Most of these do not have a very effective braking or steering system. Remember the old Ambys & M800s? They did not even have seat belts and no power brake, no power steering, pathetic lighting in addition to a very poor electrical wiring system which is prone to faults.

Although these old vehicles should not be banned completely on our roads, but the owners should definitely be encouraged to upgrade to much advanced, efficient and safe vehicles of modern times.

The solution is to have a yearly pollution and safety inspection for all vehicles. All vehicles conform to the prevailing laws at the time of sale. It's a different story after a year of use.
What needs to be verified is:
-PUC
-Brakes
-Lights
-Seatbelts
-Mirrors
-Number Plates
-Structural condition of the vehicle
-Tyres

All those 2 stroke bikes however should definitely be banned. They not only pollute the environment, they also encourage dangerous 'gymnastics' on the roads. (I see so may Rx 100 & Samurai bikers doing wheelies & other stunts here on Bangalore roads)

You can do this on any bike.

If my 14 year old car can give 17kmpl and a brand new car gives 17kmpl both of them burn fuel at the same rate and so pollution levels should be the same, okay there may be a slight change in emissions owing to a newer design catcon. And a thorough overhaul can make them perform as good as new, as in better acceleration and low nvh.

In fact the newer cars give lesser milege. So even though they are polluting less, they are harming the environment by using up more fuel.

IMHO Engine swapping should be legal in this country.

My +1

I have myself driven Amby Mark 2 and the old Japanese M800 for more than 10 years. Build quality - hats off; nothing like the good old Amby. It felt like a tank.

IMO the Amby should have been retired 30 years ago. I don't understand how it can be termed as the most comfortable car. Even the 118 NE was better for comfort.

 

[jalex]

A completely different perspective. Nice...

All those 2 stroke bikes however should definitely be banned. They not only pollute the environment, they also encourage dangerous 'gymnastics' on the roads. (I see so may Rx 100 & Samurai bikers doing wheelies & other stunts here on Bangalore roads)

You can ride rash and do 'gymnastics' on a bicycle as well. As a matter of fact you can do that with anything that's got wheels. A skateboard or a wheelchair is suffice.

I used to have modified RXs and Suzuki two strokers. Their emissions were well within the pollution norms in existence as of then and on this very day as well. 2 strokes dont necessarily pollute more than 4 Strokes. The problem lies with the ignorant owners who add more 2-Stroke oil than recommended coupled with badly tuned engines and smoke the roads. And I dont know how many of you have noticed, But airplanes pollute the most when you put all other modes of transport and the number of people ferried back to back.

 

[Prads]

Mileage Vs CatCon

Newer cars give lesser mileage cos of the modern cat cons which are restrictive but very effective also,on start up engine heat is sent to the cat con first,on a swift petrol you remove the head with the cat con housing & run a decent calculated header probably a 4-2-1 for city conditions or 4-1 it will do just as well or better in mileage(perform also) than its older similar engine counter part the esteem,that does not mean better mileage = Green mobile

Anyways purpose of cat con which i have gathered info about to keep us better educated -

Reduction of nitrogen oxides to nitrogen and oxygen: 2NOx → xO2 + N2

Oxidation of carbon monoxide to carbon dioxide: 2CO + O2 → 2CO2

Oxidation of unburnt hydrocarbons (HC) to carbon dioxide and water: CxH2x+2 + [(3x+1)/2]O2 → xCO2 + (x+1)H2O


What is nitrogen oxides & what does it give rise to?

Ans-Nitrogen dioxide (NO2) is one of a group of highly reactive gasses known as "oxides of nitrogen," or "nitrogen oxides (NOx)." Other nitrogen oxides include nitrous acid and nitric acid.

Current scientific evidence links short-term NO2 exposures, ranging from 30 minutes to 24 hours, with adverse respiratory effects including airway inflammation in healthy people and increased respiratory symptoms in people with asthma.NO2 concentrations in vehicles and near roadways are appreciably higher than those measured at monitors in the current network. In fact, in-vehicle concentrations can be 2-3 times higher than measured at nearby area-wide monitors. Near-roadway (within about 50 meters,lets just say our Indian cities & towns) concentrations of NO2 have been measured to be approximately 30 to 100% higher than concentrations away from roadways.NOx react with ammonia, moisture, and other compounds to form small particles. These small particles penetrate deeply into sensitive parts of the lungs and can cause or worsen respiratory disease, such as emphysema and bronchitis, and can aggravate existing heart disease, leading to increased hospital admissions and premature death.


What about carbon Monoxide?

Ans- Carbon monoxide (CO), also called carbonous oxide, is a colorless, odorless, and tasteless gas that is slightly lighter than air. It can be toxic to humans and animals when encountered in higher concentrations.In closed environments, the concentration of carbon monoxide can easily rise to lethal levels.Carbon monoxide is absorbed through breathing and enters the blood stream through gas exchange in the lungs. Normal circulating levels in the blood are 0% to 3%, and are higher in smokers(smoking kills remember ).


What does Unburnt Hydrocarbons give rise to?

Ans-Formaldehyde
Formaldehyde is highly toxic to all animals, regardless of method of intake. Ingestion of as little as 30 mL (1 oz.) of a solution containing 37% formaldehyde has been reported to cause death in an adult.Water solution of formaldehyde is very corrosive and its ingestion can cause severe injury to upper gastrointestinal tract.


On a personal note i dont think you need to fool yourself by saying my old car gives better mileage by around 2km,etc,it mite be energy efficient from ones perspective but its definitively not green as a car with a better cat con.

(Moderators you can move this or copy to any other thread if suiting)

 

[ToughGuy]

Banning the old vehicles are not the solution to solve the pollution related issues.

If government bans the old vehicles of certain age (Partially this law is in enforce now), then people will replace the older vehicles with the new one. If the purpose is to reduce the carbon footprints from vehicles then government should improve the public transport and their condition. People will don't mind traveling in public transport if they get same level of safety, comfort and luxury which they got in their cars.

Even if the law is made, then it will be highly challenging to implement them here, as in current scenario we do have numerous laws specially related to pollution and environment but how they are implemented in our country we all knows.

Its better to develop good public transport system or alternate eco fuel system for vehicles.

 

[ilango[speed thirst]]

Well if the car or any vehicle is maintained well & is in good condition i think it can be run & an exception made,but some vehicles are really a road hazard,

An incident that happened around a week back this "Fiat premier ne 118" entered a road junction in which i was ,he narrowly missed a two wheeler(who usually expects the car will stop) & comes straight into my car,by now i realized he has no brakes & he stops just before hitting my car & stalls it(his head lights went off) & he stares at my car as if its my fault(he could not see me obviously cos of tint),i am guessing its around a 1992 model & such cars are not only polluting but a hazard to road users,they are ignored beyond belief,compare that to a loving owned Yamaha Rd 350 from 1985 we realize its wrong to judge there road worthiness on age.

Like the Fiat 118 i mentioned you will find Maruti 1000(some emitting alot of white smoke),old Hyundai accents & santros even,if a ban has to be imposed based on age i feel other things like emission & road worthiness have to made on the vehicle before writing it off!

A narrow missing padmini is not the car's fault , its drivers fault.