ABS, ESP, EBD & Airbag - What Value Do They Add?

[jarpickle]

ABS is still not standard here neither are Airbags.These are only present in mid range or top end models.What is the government doing?

I think the EBD is a part of the ABS now a days.Please correct me if I am wrong.

I think the thing that is lacking is the ESC/ESP.This prevents the car from flipping over.

 

[Raaj]

ABS is still not standard here neither are Airbags.These are only present in mid range or top end models.What is the government doing?

True. The Govt. Should have make a rule to have Mandatory ABS+EBD and Driver airbag across all varients. But sadly, they are busy in corruption, scams, how to loot more money in the name of new and enhanced tax policies etc. Let's hope someday they would pay some attention to the people and their safety too.

I think the EBD is a part of the ABS now a days.Please correct me if I am wrong.

That's exactly where the mindgame is playing by few automotive companies. Many Folks are under the impression that ABS+EBD is a combination. It is true to some extent as EBD work on the basis of ABS. But on a cost cutting manner, lately few cars equipped ABS without EBD. For Example, Hyundai i10 Grand, Ford Ecosport etc. So, In a panic breaking the braking efficiency of these cars may be doubtful. Some One please correct me If iam wrong.

I think the thing that is lacking is the ESC/ESP.This prevents the car from flipping over.

Don't know other popular cars have this thing. But Hyundai i20 Asta user manual says, it has it.

 

[jarpickle]

AFAIK, the EBD works with the ABS.Maybe it is present but they use only ABS as it more commonly known.EBD is a subsystem of ABS.

When it comes to our country, who know what they use.I wonder how competent these systems really are.

Do they test these systems?We need something like the EURO NCAP in India.

 

[Raja]

Lately few cars such as Ford Ecosport, Grand i10 etc have equipped with ABS but lacked EBD. The theory says EBD is a must in panic situations.

So, How safe are these cars without EBD?

As per our discussion on this thread

http://www.theautomotiveindia.com/f...el-ford-figo-honda-amaze-confused-help-3.html

We're you claimed that since EBD is not in i10 grand the car becomes worthless safety wise .

]All the cars I've mentioned above (Except Sail-UVA) are having ABS+EBD and they are priced more or less similar to Grand i10. Well, giving a lower product and squeezing more money is nothing but cheating. EBD is one of the most important safety features in the cars. If it lacks, yes definitely its worthless for that kind of big money

.

My point is 9 airbags are allways safer then 6 and 6 are more safer then 4 and 4 more safer then 2 .

Relatively speaking the Volvo is the safest car because it has highest amount of safety tech loaded but that sure makes it worth but we can't claim that it makes other cars worthless since they are not loaded with tech ?

Their are different opinions that when a car comes with abs it does comes with Ebd even without mentioning it .

And some cars indeed don't come with Ebd atleast the press release don't mention it example ecosport , i10 grand .
And even the Vento, polo and even chevy cruze is not equipped with EBD as per this ->
http://www.theautomotiveindia.com/f...o-vento-equipped-abs-no-ebd-brake-assist.html

Now wiki had to say this

ABS generally offers improved vehicle control and decreases stopping distances on dry and slippery surfaces for many drivers; however, on loose surfaces like gravel or snow-covered pavement, ABS can significantly increase braking distance, although still improving vehicle control.[1][2][3]
Since initial widespread use in production cars, anti-lock braking systems have evolved considerably. Recent versions not only prevent wheel lock under braking, but also electronically control the front-to-rear brake bias. This function, depending on its specific capabilities and implementation, is known as electronic brakeforce distribution (EBD), traction control system, emergency brake assist, or electronic stability control (ESC).

Anti-lock braking system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My question is Ebd in a car with abs is surely a plus , but what if Ebd is not present and only abs and airbags is present does that makes the car worthless when it comes to safety ?

And also does the omission of Ebd makes cars like i10 grand , Vento , cruze , ecosport
Worthless safety wise ?

Similar discussion was done on the ecosport thread too that is this ->

Quote:
Originally Posted by nkonamme
@sankalp_1980: I have clearly told its fords way of handling ecosport customers made me cancel and I dint book Hyundai verna
ABS + EBD + BRAKE ASSIST is the perfect combination(Suzuki hondas offer this). Ford offers EBD in figo,why not in ecosport? I dont believe your argument telling only ABS is adequate

To which the other member said this

First of all we must understand what is ABS,EBD & EBA.

The standard Anti-lock Braking System (ABS) makes for safer stopping and cornering.

Electronic Brakeforce Distribution (EBD) assists in balancing braking force between front and rear wheels, depending on driving and vehicle load conditions.

Working alongside EBD is Emergency Brake Assist (EBA), a system that interprets a driver’s braking behaviour and automatically initiates full braking faster than a driver ever could.

Now you need to pay attention on "Underlined sentences" above, Only ABS is sufficient if the per who driving the car is capable to drive & is a good driver of car
Meanwhile if driver of car is a novice then EBD & EBA are helpful.

Hence if people are going to drive a car (no matter Nano, Ecosport or even Fortuner) then first need is to learn properly how to drive the car

Why only ABD is sufficient (Without EBD/EBA) if car is being run by a good driver-

Anti-lock Braking System (ABS) - When brakes are applied under heavy loads, the braking pressure becomes high resulting in heavy braking or in other words locking up of wheels. The ABS overcomes this by monitoring the wheel speed and releases pressure on each wheel brake lines in the form of rapid pulses switching between different brake lines. which prevent locking-up.Preventing lock-up under heavy braking helps the driver in maintaining control over the vehicle. In modern ABS an individual brake line is provided for each of the four wheel enabling different braking pressures for different road surfaces of the wheels.

 

[Simple_car]

Lately few cars such as Ford Ecosport, Grand i10 etc have equipped with ABS but lacked EBD. The theory says EBD is a must in panic situations.

So, How safe are these cars without EBD?

Hi Raaj,

Although, EBD is a good to have feature, the way the brakes are calibrated in a car, and the pedal feedback is far more important from a driver's point of view.
The best way for a layman to really understand the safety aspect of these cars, when you are doing a test drive, do test the panic braking on the vehicle. That will give you a very good idea about how the vehicle will perform under panic situations.
Some experience from my side:
- My brother's ritz vxi w/o ABS, doesn't skid its wheels even under panic situations. The brakes although are not the best, but they are adequate for day to day use.
- My dad's figo which has ABS w/o EBD, behaves very well under panic situations. Even on the slippery surfaces, no issues. Of course, tyre change helps a lot here.
- The car I drive had ABS, EBD and ESP. The braking is superb (although this has more to do with the fact that it has 4 disc brakes), but the pedal feedback is poor. So, actually, I am more cautious with this car although it brakes better than most other cars..
- Our now sold hyundai getz which didn't have ABS, EBD etc. had the best brakes in its segment. No abnormal behaviour whatsoever in any situation. No locking, no skidding etc.. You get the picture.

So, when you do a test drive, just check out the brakes carefully.

Thanks,
Simple_car

 

[Simple_car]

Another point I forgot to mention is this:

I have driven cars with host of safety features like ABS/EBD/ESP/EBA etc.. Germans and Japanese cars these were.
I have noticed one thing. The more the safety features added, the more the disconnect is there between the driver and car. Panic braking in the big german saloons is something to be experienced. These cars can shed speed really well and all the tech really helps. However, this is what happens from my point of view:
- I am driving at reasonable speeds on a road.
- Suddenly a obstacle comes into my way
- I slam my brakes. I don't stand on them but slam them, i.e. I am confident that the car will stop with the braking power I have applied on the pedal.
- The car immediately slows down, but the force applied by the electronics on the brakes is somewhat more than I would like.
- The car comes to a stop much much earlier than what I estimate, which is kind of a double edged sword. On one hand you are going to avoid your obstacle much earlier, but then the car behind you is going to rear-end you (personal experience here:))
- Here the car is deciding how much brake force to be applied, and not how much I want to be apply.
- As a driver, you definitely feel disconnected from your car. You are essentially leaving it to the car's brain to stop.

Now, does this mean this is bad? No. As a matter of fact all these systems do work very well and are actually safe for most average drivers. I would definitely recommend them.

However, I am not comfortable with the disconnect. I definitely like good pedal feedback and good calibration. This, I value far more, since I am a keen driver. I like to know that the car stops in the way I intend it to. This is very important for me. Personal choice. That is why, I do not drive my own car daily despite it being a much much safer car. I take out my dad's figo or my brother's ritz.
I know the fact that they do not have the best of brakes, BUT I am always aware of the car's behaviour. There is no disconnect which I personally hate. That is what I really want to say. You decide on your own what you want.

For most people, I generally would advise that go for all the safety features. However, I personally test out a vehicle myself before deciding, and am not personally averse to skipping EBD or EBA or some other thing. I however do recommend 2 things which are actually very very beneficial: ABS and ESP. These are wonder gadgets. You have to experience them to really know how good they are for normal road driving conditions especially in India.

Thanks,
Simple_car

 

[Raja]

Lately few cars such as Ford Ecosport, Grand i10 etc have equipped with ABS but lacked EBD. The theory says EBD is a must in panic situations.

So, How safe are these cars without EBD?

Well here one more real life example of a member MSN1 who has figo with abs + Ebd and now has ecosport with just abs .

Lets read his view point

what about a customer who used both the kind of breaks gives you a feed back on this, yes my Previous Car was Figo Titanium Diesel (ABS + EBD)
and you know my Current car is Ecosport Diesel Titanium Diesel Opt (Only ABS)

comparing to my FIGO breaking, Ecosport breaking distance is lesser (i meant it took lesser time/distance than FIGO to come to stand still when i apply breaks)

does this means ABS only break is better than ABS + EBD breaks, i said better in breaking not effective/ superior than ABS + EBD

No am not confusing you at midnight, its simple EBD is very useful when it comes to breaking while all four wheels are in different surface (assume rear left wheel is in gravel surface where rest are on road) as the number of spinning of each wheel is not equal for all four wheel as the wheel on loose ground used to spin more.... under such situation EBD distributes the breaking force according to some complex calculation and helps the driver (dont ask me the formula am computer dependent, and a science group guy during high school so pardon me sir)

our Ecosport is not a 4x4 and its not a lengthy car, so in regular Indian terrain aka roads mostly all four wheels are in uneven surface or even surface, even if their is any difference it wont make any big difference if speed is normal

and the other difference is in figo i used to get a vibration or fast pumping kind of feel on break pedal while applying sudden break... but the same feel am not getting in Ecosport but it stops as per my requirement.

 

[Raja]

For most people, I generally would advise that go for all the safety features. However, I personally test out a vehicle myself before deciding, and am not personally averse to skipping EBD or EBA or some other thing. I however do recommend 2 things which are actually very very beneficial: ABS and ESP. These are wonder gadgets. You have to experience them to really know how good they are for normal road driving conditions especially in India.

Thanks,
Simple_car

@ simple _car and our mod @ Sam dinkar

Does a car with abs + airbags is also equally safe compared to car with abs+ Ebd + airbags ? And if there is a difference what is the magnitude in real life driving in country like India ?

 

[MSN1]

What Wikipedia has to say about EBD:



The braking performance on Figo and Ecosport may different due to different size of disc and drum specs but EBD is a safety feature but we never know when one would need it as we can't always assume that we will never need it. The point I am trying to make here when it comes to safety features there should be no compromise as I feel having ESP/ESC and TC is also should be provided.

Also I have seen Maruti cars come with ABS + EBD and BA which is nothing but EBA (Electronic brake assist). EBA is only offered in AT variant of Titanium.

Electronic brakeforce distribution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I hope your ES is treating you well and waiting for your review on ES. My endless wait keeps continuing.

Ecosport is a Car with higher CC engine, higher GC, more the weight, more the length, bigger the wheel size (so i assume the drum or disk or tumbler or vessels or what so ever) size also bigger as it should go with the size of the wheel... so i feel their is some thing significant here in Ecosport which doesn't have EBD but comes to control better/faster than my figo that has ABS with EBD

May be EBD comes to play a vital role when it comes to typical unexpected situation where it is not part of our everyday life in life out....but who saves if devil takes call no safety options save you (example frequently we read a lot on high end cars BMW or BENZ etc... rammed in to pedestrians or median or standing lorry or bus or shop and so on) where those shooting breaks and advance futures lists gone and why it doesn't comes to control.... no one knows and all incidents involved are not drunken may be one or two.

 

[Simple_car]

@ simple _car and our mod @ Sam dinkar

Does a car with abs + airbags is also equally safe compared to car with abs+ Ebd + airbags ? And if there is a difference what is the magnitude in real life driving in country like India ?

Car with abs+ Ebd + airbags is more safe.

Let there be no debate on my stand. I am all for ABS/EBD/ESP/EBA or some such other safety things they put in cars. Most of the established features really work. EBD is a good assistance in a car. It works, and works well.
A car with EBD will definitely stop in a much more composed manner and theoretically a little earlier than a car without EBD (I haven't done any testing and hence I am speaking from purely a 'feel' point of view).
I drive a car w/o EBD and a car with EBD (same company) quite regularly. The car with EBD definitely brakes well and better than the one w/o. However, I still prefer to drive the car w/o EBD. That car has a better pedal feedback which I am comfortable with and like personally. In normal day to day driving, you are not going to notice the EBD's assistance. It is only when you are on one of those spirited drives, when you notice that the car with EBD is a little different in responding to your pedal inputs. It takes some time to really notice it but it is there all right. This is something I do not like personally. It will not make any difference to most people, but I am a little to choosy.. That's just me.
The car's I am referring to are Ford's. It is possible that your experience will differ with different companies. I have always liked the brakes in all the hyundai cars I have driven. I am yet to drive a hyundai with such assistance systems, and it may be possible that I may not be able to tell the difference in a hyundai with and w/o EBD. It really depends on calibration and integration of these assist systems with the car.
So, as a thumb rule, I will tell any person to go ahead and buy cars with EBD/ABS etc. I, on my own, test drive cars looking for specific things which I like and don't like. So, I still buy cars which have no ABS, cars with ABS, cars with ABS/EBD, and maybe more. Depends on who's going to drive the car and what I want from a specific vehicle.

I hope this answers your doubt.

Thanks,
Simple_car

 

[Indian]

Interesting topic guys

Well I have been driving cars with ABS+EBD for exactly 10 years, and non ABS cars before that and that too in US/Canada where 8 months of heavy snow fall and slippery road conditions. So my last non ABS car was Nissan Altima, every winter my car would atleast spin about 3 to 4 times. Please note I am very careful driver never got into any accident in my life. Then I upgraded to Honda Accord which is ABS+EBD and ever since not a single spin unintentionally. So ABS worked for me!

Basically ABS, is nothing but automated pumping of the brakes. Its like you apply brake and release and apply and release and keep going till your car comes to complete halt. In the case of non ABS cars once you start skidding, the speed of the car just starts picks up and will accelerate till you hit something or after some more time by the inertia the car would stop by itself. In the case ABS it would turn the brakes on and off repeatedly just making sure there is no skidding involved. In this process even if the car skids during the 'apply' brake time, since it releases the brakes next and then apply again, there is a good chance that braking applied next try. Hope I am able to explain this properly.

Back in the past while driving the non ABS cars, it was told that when ever you have a skid you need to 'pump the brakes' and I have done it many times and it works. But in panic situations you need to be very confident driver to release the brakes while you are skidding.

Now the next thing EBD, as per my knowledge its the distribution of the braking force to 4 wheels independently by the system based on the loading of a car. For eg you have loaded back seats and the trunk then while braking it would apply more braking on the rear wheels than the front. Without EBD there is a chance that cars rear portion would try to push forward there by spinning the car if the car is not aligned with the direction of motion.

I feel its a more valuable feature than having a airbags. Airbags comes into picture only after the collision. I have a Swift Zxi with ABS and EBD and I never had a anxious moment so far. There were incidents but my car always behaved as I wanted.

But once you have ABS enabled car, please try out the ABS. Take the car to some remote place where there is obstruction and risk. Drive at say 30 Km/h and apply the brakes and make sure the ABS gets activated. For the first time I will promise you that you will be shocked to see the vibration and the bone jarring sound. This is very normal and if that sound did not come out, then ABS not activated at all. You need to try again. Please try this and get used to it first otherwise you are going to be doubled panicky in emergency situations.

 

[Bopanna]

Now the next thing EBD, as per my knowledge its the distribution of the braking force to 4 wheels independently by the system based on the loading of a car. For eg you have loaded back seats and the trunk then while braking it would apply more braking on the rear wheels than the front. Without EBD there is a chance that cars rear portion would try to push forward there by spinning the car if the car is not aligned with the direction of motion.

That's a very nice description of the EBD benefit. EBD also has the benefit of reducing the stopping distance when the car is loaded with luggage or passengers. This is illustrated in this Nissan document :

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/DOCUMENT/PDF/TECHNOLOGY/safety_activities/safety_activities_E-4.pdf



With a car like Ecosport or even Jazz which have foldable/magic seats, it is often going to be used to haul luggage. In those cases, EBD would be quite beneficial.

 

[Neelkanth]

@simple_car @Indian

Quite good info guys and traction control and ESP/ESC/VSC whatever they call are also quite important.

Also not sure why cars from VW and Ford have removed EBD. Does their ABS also function as EBD as EBD is a subsytem of ABS to not sure? It would be good if someone can throw some light on this?

 

[Bopanna]

EBD is an optional subsystem of ABS. Not sure why VW vehicles and Ecosport don't have it. This is a good article on EBD ...

ABS Update: Electronic Brake Distribution (EBD): Counterman

(EBD)... can optimize braking under all driving conditions, including the braking of individual wheels (front or rear) to improve braking, reduce stopping distances and maintain stability if the brakes are being applied while turning or making other maneuvers. One of the big advantages of EBD is that it can make the rear brakes work harder as long as they’re maintaining good traction. On a dry road, EBD can reduce the stopping distance significantly over ordinary brakes.

So yes, unlike what some people claim on the Ecosport thread, EBD has significant advantage when present along with ABS. Both in straightline braking and braking on a turn.

And contrary what some people claim on Ecosport thread, the shorter wheel base of the Ecosport means more weight transfer (from rear to front) takes place while braking. The weight transfer means the front brakes have to work much harder than the rear brakes; so more the weight transfer, more the stopping distance. The weight transfer problem can be solved two ways :

1. Stiffen the suspension - reduces the amount of weight transferred - there are limits to how effective this can be
2. EBD - If EBD can apply maximum braking pressure to rear brakes, even before the weight transfer to front occurs, it can drastically reduce the stopping distance.

In short, need for EBD is even more severe in a short-wheelbase car like the Ecosport.

Refs:
http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2/brakes/big_brakes/background_part1.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_brakeforce_distribution

But EBD is not a substitute for good driving practices like judging speed while cornering, or maintaining safe speeds and keeping distance.

 

[jarpickle]

Bopanna, most cars with ABS use proportioning valves.These are mechanical EBD systems.

Most older cars with Carbs(Zens and Esteems)and then MPFI engines came with proportioning valves.This works on the same principal as the EBD but instead of an ECU calculating the proportioning vavles work on mechanical force of the hydraulic fluid.

I have no ABS in my Ertiga but it has a proportioning valve.This is a cost cutting measure employed by car manufacturers.Not all people know the importance of safety equipment.Most people want creature comforts rather than safety.