Maruti Suzuki Wagon-R CNG ICE

[H1C3T]

Hi guys
I have a Wagon R CNG, I got Kicker ES 65.2 installed in the front doors on heavy recommendation from a close friend. Although it produces decent bass, but the level I want is that of a Bass tube/Subwoofer which I unfortunately can't install due to limitations with CNG tank.
HU is a 2-din JVC stock. To get the more Bass I'm thinking of going for 6 - 6.5 inch Coaxials in rear doors, only issues is that I can't figure out which to go for. 6x9 is an option, but I don't want anything close to the CNG tank. My budget would be 5k tops.
Also, would I need to get an Amp after the speakers? If so, please recommend something below 5k.
Please help out.

 

[Niku]

Re: WagonR CNG ICE

If you feel that you need more bass, and are unsatisfied with the bass output of the Kicker, you should go in for 6x9 coaxials on a parcel tray. Even 6.5" round coaxials won't perform well and give much bass than a 6x9 oval mounted on an MDF tray. If you buy premium 6x9 coaxials, you can altogether eliminate the need of a subwoofer/basstube (as they can produce bass equivalent to an 8" sub).

So, you have 2 ways to go through this problem IMO:

1. GET 6X9 COAXIALS ON AN MDF TRAY:
This method is a tried and tested method. The coaxials have a more cone surface and would push more air, resulting in better bass. Don't get fooled by the max. power ratings though, it is the RMS rating which is more useful in comparing the brands. Don't go for Sony. JBL, Pioneer, GZ, Blaupunkt, Hertz, Infinity and Polk are some good brands in your budget of 5k. JBL GTO series is a very reknowned speaker series (especially the 949) and would cost under 5k. If you are dead serious about bass, there is nothing better than Pioneer. You should audition all these speakers before deciding to avoid troubles in future. Personally, I would advice Pioneer 6X9 speakers on an MDF tray. MDF tray would cost additional ~1k.

And I didn't understand your logic of "nothing close to the CNG tank". CNG tank is very sturdy and would literally have negligible effect due to the thumping of the speakers.

2. GET AN UNDERSEAT SUBWOOFER:
An underseat subwoofer is a very uncommon method of getting some decent bass in the cabin. The usual sizes are 8" though you may find some 10" also. I have only heard Xenos 8" underseat subwoofer and was not satisfied with the output. If produces limited bass, best comparable to good 6x9 speakers and the price tag is often hefty as most of them have an inbuilt amplifier. The entire thing would cost around 10k.

According to me, option 1 is the better choice.

First, I would advice you to get only the coaxials fitted on the tray. If you still need more bass or quality out of your music, then get an amplifier. A 4 channel amplifier would be preferred as powering only the rear speakers would make the soundstage rear-heavy. Powering only the front would be no problem though (the front speakers would be more pronounced than the rear). In 5k, you can look for JBL GXA644SI. Other brands are Pioneer, GZ, Kenwood and the like. Don't go in for a V12 amplifier or Sony. Compare the RMS ratings before buying and ensure that the RMS of the amplifier is more than the RMS of the speakers (or equal).

Creating a rough idea for the price

First stage (~5k)
1. JBL/Pioneer 6x9 : Rs. ~4k (for w/o bill and warranty, ~3k)
2. Wiring and Labour : Rs. ~1k (or less)
3. MDF Tray : Rs. ~1k

For next stage (~6.5/7k)
1. JBL/Pioneer 4 Channel Amplifier : Rs. 5k (w/ bill and warranty. 3.5k w/o bill and warranty IMO)
2. Amp Wiring Kit : Rs. ~2k (depending on the brand. Starts from mere 500 bucks to hefty 5k and more)
3. Labour : Rs. ~1k (or less)

Note that the amp can be mounted under the front seat.
You can waive off the labour charges by negotiating hard.

Regards,
Nikunj

 

[H1C3T]

Re: WagonR CNG ICE

In my other car (also a Wagon R (2001) xD) I had Pioneer coaxials 550 watts (can't remember model, but I remember it said 550 watts on the box) on the shelf and 4" Boston Acoustics in the Dashboard. I did get decent bass but the speakers started giving very distorted sound after about 1 year.

And I didn't understand your logic of "nothing close to the CNG tank". CNG tank is very sturdy and would literally have negligible effect due to the thumping of the speakers.

Earlier I had thought about getting a Bass tube on the parcel tray, but I was told by a friend to avoid placing speakers near the Tank for safety measures. Tube that I had in mind was 8" as that would most likely not obscure the rear view too much.
So I figured getting a 6 - 6.5 inch coaxials from a reputed brand like Infinity, JBL, Hertz, Kicker, Rockford Fossgate, Blaupunkt etc. Would check the sound and than get an amp if needed.
So, I would not get the Bass I want with 6 - 6.5 inch coaxials even if I got an amp?
And I live in Ghaziabad, could anyone point me to a dealer who can provide an audition? All the major dealers I've gone to do not provide auditions.

 

[Niku]

Re: WagonR CNG ICE

@H1C3T:
There is nothing like placing speakers would have an effect on the CNG tank, AFAIK. Placing a basstube on a parcel tray is not a good idea as it will block the rear view and can cause problems while reversing/driving.

An 8" basstube would not produce enough bass like the standard 12", though it may be smaller in size. Getting coaxials is better than 8" drivers as they produce similar levels of bass, and are much easier to fit as they don't consume much space.

See, the components are good for bass if powered with an amp. You will get better bass than your current setup, as I cannot define the "decent" as music tastes differ from individual to individual. 6x9 coaxials have better surface area (bigger cone) and push more air, allowing for better bass. Plus, they get a better area to move (baffle) as compared to the components which would be confined in the door pads. Getting an amp would not only increase bass output, it will also increase the loudness and quality of the music. Instead of spending on the amp at one go, I would say first get 6x9 coaxials, if you feel the need after the install, then you can get an amp.

Different brands have different sound signatures. Without an audition, you would not get an idea of how a brand sounds. You show off the music quality and signature and not the brands in your ICE setup, so buying a speaker based on only the brands available would not be a good idea. And I don't think any shop would deny an audition if you genuinely want to buy a stuff.

Install a parcel tray with 6x9 coaxials. There are many installs done in the same way in Faridabad. You would be happy.

Regards,
Nikunj

 

[H1C3T]

Re: WagonR CNG ICE

Nikunj, I understand your point. Now all I need is shortlisting of 6x9s. I just came back from a dealer, he is giving me Infinity Kappa for 4k and JBL GTO 949 for around that amount only. He said only these 2 would fulfill my needs.
For Amp, he was pushing V12 or a Sony, any reason you didn't advice those?
RMS, if I go for Infinity Kappa comes to 420 watts and in case of JBL 949, comes to 400 watts. So should I be going for an Amp with at least 800 watt output?

 

[Niku]

@H1C3T:
Buddy, the power figures you are mentioning are not RMS but the MAX power. RMS power is the nominal amount of power that the speakers need. Maximum is the max. power that the speakers can handle. You will reach the max 400/420W power only at high volumes and that also not for long durations.

You can confirm the model numbers of the 2 speakers you have shortlisted. Then you can find their specifications from Google.

My personal preference would be JBL as the GTO949 series is well tested. You can audition boyh before deciding. The dealer can give you a demo by simply plugging in the speakers to any car's rear speaker output wire, or the speaker repair guy of that shop would show you a demp through his HU.

You will need an amplifier of 70W per channel if your speaker RMS is 70W. Maximum power doesn't matter (that is why you will find the V12 amp will be having 6400W Maximum power). About the V12 or Sony amplifiers, V12 is a locally made brand and will not be good for reliable for long term. I have used a V12 amp in the past and found 2 channels to be kaput after 1 month. About Sony, as a brand it has no negatives. But in the ICE scene, Sony products are not good performers. For example, take the Sony XSW12002 (or similar) subwoofer which has 1800W maximum power and a Rockford RS1412 (or similar) subwoofer with 300W Maximum power. You will find the RF sub to be a better responsive sub. There is no other problem with Sony but you can get other brands at the same price also.

If you are getting the ovals with bill and warranty, then 4k is a good price. Try negotiating the price of labour and miscellaneous items. Amplifier should also cost around 4.5k with bill and warranty. Try sourcing the JBL GXA644SI online, I got it from Snapdeal and it is performing good. I got it for 4.2k.

PS. Sorry for the late reply. Busy with my car decision-making.

Regards,
Nikunj

 

[H1C3T]

Nikunj:
Thanks for all your answers and explanations. I checked the JBL amp you mentioned, it provides 60 W RMS (Source of info) as opposed to 70 that you mentioned, wont this be a problem?
Also, in description of that amp, it says "Selectable bass boost", being an owner yourself, could you please explain it?
Secondly, HU has 50x4, further digging indicates actual output in about 22 (Source of info. If 60W RMS from Amp is supposed to be constant and addition of 22 from HU would provide 82 W RMS on all 4 channels. Am I understanding this right?

 

[saroya]

Nikunj:
Thanks for all your answers and explanations. I checked the JBL amp you mentioned, it provides 60 W RMS (Source of info) as opposed to 70 that you mentioned, wont this be a problem?
Also, in description of that amp, it says "Selectable bass boost", being an owner yourself, could you please explain it?
Secondly, HU has 50x4, further digging indicates actual output in about 22 (Source of info. If 60W RMS from Amp is supposed to be constant and addition of 22 from HU would provide 82 W RMS on all 4 channels. Am I understanding this right?

60w rms is enough buddy. anything more than 50w rms will be good enough for better sound quality.
selectabe bass boost means amp has option to control bass boost as per the requirements.
almost all good HUs produce nearly 20w x4 rms power for direct connected speakers.
Amp connects through Pre outs connectors and not directly. so speakers connected to an amp will be powered only with the power provided by amp.

 

[Niku]

Saroya has correctly mentioned.

HU power will not be added to the Amp's power. Amplifier will only amplify the power from the HU and provide 60w RMS as opposed to the RMS your HU provides.

You muat check the RMS ratings of speakers also. If they are upto 60W RMS then ypu can consider the GXA644SI. I was just giving an example about the 70W RMS thing.

Stock speakers need only ~20W RMS. When compared to them, even the 60W RMS Ovals are bang for the buck.

Bass boost means that you can specially enhance the bass output of the speakers by turning the knob provided. It is not adviced though and running on 0 Bass Boost is better for the long run. It is similar to the bass boost function we have in mobile phones.

Regards,
Nikunj

 

[H1C3T]

Saroya and Nikunj:
Thanks for your replies. I'll do some serious auditioning over the week and get the installation done on Sunday. I'll go with what Nikunj recommended, put in the 6x9s in first w/o the amp and see how it goes.
If need be, I could get a Sub installed on the MDF tray w/o any problems, right?
Kindly suggest what amp and sub I could go for if need arises?

 

[saroya]

Saroya and Nikunj:
Thanks for your replies. I'll do some serious auditioning over the week and get the installation done on Sunday. I'll go with what Nikunj recommended, put in the 6x9s in first w/o the amp and see how it goes.
If need be, I could get a Sub installed on the MDF tray w/o any problems, right?
Kindly suggest what amp and sub I could go for if need arises?

Sub on MDF tray . Sorry bro it's a bad idea. You should install 6x9 coaxials on MDF tray for better performance. Sub must be installed in a sealed or ported enclosure only.

 

[H1C3T]

Sub on MDF tray . Sorry bro it's a bad idea. You should install 6x9 coaxials on MDF tray for better performance. Sub must be installed in a sealed or ported enclosure only.

Well I have a major constraint in that case. All my boot space is occupied by CNG cylinder. No space to even put an amp. If needed, I'll be putting amp under driver seat.
What about a wooden tray, will that work?

 

[saroya]

Well I have a major constraint in that case. All my boot space is occupied by CNG cylinder. No space to even put an amp. If needed, I'll be putting amp under driver seat.
What about a wooden tray, will that work?

Then it is a big problem buddy. i doubt a MDF tray will not be able to bear the heavy weight and vibrations of sub, specially 12" sub( weight approximately 2.5 kg )
Post a picture of your boot , i think a custom made enclosure can be fitted there.

 

[generalmax]

In Wagon R LPG/CNG ,there is no provosion of keeping a parcel tray.You have to drill the body to keep the tray. Just check once again. I think separate boxes is the best solution.

 

[Niku]

@H1C3T:
Putting a subwoofer on the tray isn't a particularly bad idea if you have no other option.

You will have to choose an infinite baffle sub (free air). AFA I remember, Pioneer had an infinite baffle sub. Putting a normal sub designed for boxes on the tray would be a bad idea. Do remember that a sub on the tray won't be as responsive than one in a box as there is nothing sealed to control the movement of the cone.

But in WagonR, I don't think mounting all three would be possible. 2 speakers (6X9) and one subwoofer (10/12") would be a very tight fit on the parcel tray. In this case, you will be having a rear biased soundstage and you will not enjoy much as the sound would be coming from the back. You need equally powerful speakers at the front to balance the soundstage.

So leave the sub idea for now. Fit it in your next car!

Just go in the market and audition the 6X9 coaxials and try to get a good deal. Do not end up spending more than 4/4.5k on the speakers and no more than 1k on the tray. If looking for outright bass, and not the vocals, Pioneer will suit you. Else, JBL is also good with a nice balance of midbass and highs, but lacks a bit on bass. Infinity might be a perfect choice but you'll have to audition first. Stay away from the fakes, you can find many original pics of the speakers and keep those in mind before purchasing. If you are tight on budget, you can go for the grey market ones, i.e. without bill and warranty as they will cost 3/3.5k. Keep supervising the installation from time to time and keep talking to the labour/installer about what he is doing now and then, in a friendly way. If you are planning to pay him some tip, then do it before he starts the installation so that he does the job with better dedication.

Amp can be added in the next stage if you feel the need.

Regards,
Nikunj